#reform | Logs for 2018-11-08
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[00:32:27] <mntmn> mostlty a price question, epaper/eink is still comparatively expensive and it’s also a big UI/UX questionmark for a generic OS
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[01:20:14] <Jookia> mntmn: Make sure to include EFI and use distro_bootcmd in the u-boot port
[01:41:27] <bkeys1> mntmn: How long does it take a reform to boot to a desktop?
[01:43:07] <bkeys1> Also is there a final decision on the aluminum parts? The pictures look really nice
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[01:46:04] <swivel> darth-cheney: 16:32 <@mntmn> mostlty a price question, epaper/eink is still comparatively
[01:46:07] <swivel> expensive and it’s also a big UI/UX questionmark for a generic OS
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[02:21:47] <bkeys1> Also are the key caps gonna be see through like in the pictures?
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[04:58:39] <darth-cheney> yes e paper display
[05:00:46] <bkeys> darth-cheney just wanted to say I like your nick
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[06:06:11] <darth-cheney> thanks dude
[08:42:30] <mntmn> Jookia, include EFI? distro_bootcmd? Can you elaborate?
[08:43:43] <Jookia> mntmn: u-boot has a unified boot process now called distro_bootcmd, and a few config flags you should set for wide compatibility to make booting easier
[08:43:57] <Jookia> When I re-do the Novena u-boot port I plan to set them up
[08:45:29] <mntmn> Jookia, which distros can be booted with that and from what media? USB?
[08:46:23] <Jookia> It searches all available sources (MMC, SATA, USB, PXE, TFTP) for u-boot.scr, extlinux.conf or EFI binaries
[08:46:46] <Jookia> So depending on the distro, it makes things easier to add a bootloader to
[08:47:06] <Jookia> ie, on another ARM board I downloaded OpenBSD, added the bootloader and it booted
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[08:48:13] <Jookia> The opposite example is the Novena atm which has its u-boot hardcoded to boot a Debian kernel at a certain partition
[08:48:58] <mntmn> cool. does OpenBSD support the same dtb stuff?
[08:49:16] <Jookia> Yeah. It's kind of a gradient of responsibility:
[08:49:41] <Jookia> 1. Booting a plain u-boot script means the script specifies kernel, initrd, dtb, memory locations and boots
[08:50:01] <Jookia> 2. Booting an extlinux.conf means the script specifies kernel, initrd, dtb but u-boot specifies memory locations
[08:50:28] <Jookia> 3. Booting EFI means u-boot specifies dtb and the EFI program boots
[08:51:10] <Jookia> It lessens responsibility on bootloader packages on upstream
[08:51:28] <Jookia> OpenBSD takes option 3, so I dd'd u-boot and added the dtb to its boot partition
[08:51:42] <Jookia> So u-boot found the dtb, OpenBSD's EFI binary and booted them. Magic.
[08:52:25] <mntmn> very interesting. is there a name convention for the dtb or how is it found?
[08:52:51] <Jookia> It's arbitrary, though there's a convention based on what Linux uses
[08:53:07] <Jookia> my /boot has /boot/novena.dtb
[08:53:42] <mntmn> ok so it will just pick the first *.dtb?
[08:53:51] <Jookia> No, u-boot has a system of environment variables
[08:54:06] <Jookia> So when you compile u-boot you prefill these variables, or you can edit + save them to the partition at runtime
[08:54:21] <mntmn> yeah, ah you mean the default dtb name
[08:54:25] <Jookia> Yes
[08:55:26] <Jookia> u-boot's distro bootcmd thing also has a REPL you can drop in to instead of booting, and run the boot commands yourself. Good for dual booting. But you can also run GRUB in EFI mode now
[08:56:52] <mntmn> ah, that’s crazy re: GRUB
[08:57:23] <Jookia> Another gotcha you might want to watch out for is partitioning for the i.mx6 u-boot SPL
[08:58:39] <Jookia> the u-boot SPL which the CPU loads off of MMC or SATA to chainload u-boot is located at 1024 bytes in to the drive for some reason, and this overlaps with GPT
[09:00:09] <mntmn> yeah i know
[09:00:57] <mntmn> i wrote some notes about the current boot process here https://mntmn.com
[09:01:45] <Jookia> I just learned this today and am a little lost about how to deal with this :P
[09:02:05] <mntmn> Jookia, i found that the GPT spec allows to put the partition table in an alternate location but most tools (afaik also u-boot) don’t support that correctly
[09:02:44] <Jookia> Is it possible that msdos partition 1 will overlap with the boot code?
[09:05:45] <mntmn> MBR is only in sector 0, but not sure about where partition 1 can start
[09:07:19] <Jookia> All the drives I have start at 2048
[09:07:56] <Jookia> I can just imagine that being an issue for people downloading images and trying to get them to work with the i.MX6
[09:10:16] <Jookia> Oh, it's 1MiB alignment: https://en.wikipedia.org
[09:15:48] <mntmn> ah. i would guess the i.MX stuff was designed around MBR.
[09:17:37] <Jookia> Yeah. Based on some faulty math I think the u-boot.spl I have installed is 12K too big if Linux didn't align to 1MiB
[09:19:21] <Jookia> (32256 bytes between MBR and first partiton, 44032 byte SPL)
[09:19:28] <Jookia> theoretical first partition*
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[13:32:30] <mntmn> some photos from the ongoing assembly http://mntmn.com
[13:34:10] <darth-cheney> The open question of UX/UI for an OS with an e paper display is one of the most exciting parts!
[13:35:33] <mntmn> darth-cheney: i agree!
[13:36:12] <mntmn> we'll be at 35c3 btw https://signup.c3assemblies.de
[13:36:53] <mntmn> i found these epaper displays quite interesting btw https://www.plasticlogic.com
[13:43:55] <darth-cheney> oh wow the high performance driver is itself an i.mx6
[13:44:22] <mntmn> darth-cheney, yes, that's a fun thing. some imx6es have an epd driver in hardware
[13:44:58] <mntmn> the remarkable tablet is also imx6 based afaik
[13:47:08] <darth-cheney> yeah I want to try that tablet but it's too much cheddar for me right now
[13:49:34] <darth-cheney> there are some interesting ui aspects even to that
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[15:07:57] <adjtm> darth-cheney, I use a Yotaphone2, it has both an amoled and an e-ink display
[15:08:21] <adjtm> you can run everything on the e-ink display, including watching video
[15:08:45] <adjtm> it even makes scroll very fast
[15:09:10] <adjtm> mntmn, the photos you posted look great, great job
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[15:20:13] <mntmn> thanks adjtm
[15:20:20] <mntmn> yotaphone looks interesting, didn't know it
[15:23:02] <adjtm> mntmn, I would not recommend it, the software support is very bad and it would be a hell to make a custom rom for it (it has a lot of mod to support the e-ink display)
[15:24:07] <adjtm> I bought it because I was very interested in how android with an e-ink display would work, then my nexus4's touchscreen stopped working and I have used it for same time)
[15:24:30] <adjtm> mntmn, but now I'm switching to a galaxy s3 with replicant
[15:41:17] <mntmn> adjtm, i’m on iphone ;) i would be interested in a plain linux or bsd phone
[15:43:01] <adjtm> mntmn, you can run nearly plain linux on an android phone
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[16:20:45] <mntmn> adjtm: you mean postmarketOS?
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[16:50:05] <adjtm> mntmn, running a Linux distribution with the Android kernel
[16:50:41] <adjtm> you can run it inside a chroot from the Android system, or the other way around like this: http://whiteboard.ping.se
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[16:52:51] <adjtm> the main problem is what applications do you have for "main linux" that are useful for phone use
[16:57:05] <darth-cheney> adjtm what's the ghosting like at those high refresh rates? And is there any problem with overheating or pushing the display too much that way?
[16:59:33] <adjtm> darth-cheney, yota was pushing the technology too far, and many had problems with the e-ink display (in my case black is not black enough when it needs to redraw most of the screen with black)
[17:01:03] <adjtm> for example, I use a black background on the Android launcher (the main display is amoled, so blacks are awesome), but with the e-ink display I would like a white background
[17:02:29] <adjtm> yota has proprietary apps that are designed for the e-ink display, but I only use the "lock" screen with the clock and some notifications
[17:03:14] <adjtm> I use free software apps on the e-ink, but mostly for reading (black text over white)
[17:06:05] <adjtm> I think that they put a lot of effort on the e-ink driver to do mostly partial updates and get a very high refreshing frequency (I think that it refreshes about 10 frames/s)
[17:06:09] <adjtm> darth-cheney, ^
[17:07:12] <adjtm> unfortunately that's all non-free, that's why making a custom from for it using the e-ink display would require a lot of drivers rewrite
[17:08:47] <adjtm> I forgot to mention that I also use a launcher designed for e-ink displays, but to switch to it when I switch to the e-ink display is not automatic (so not very convenient)
[17:09:56] <adjtm> Jookia, ping
[18:20:53] <swivel> mntmn: http://mntmn.com is missing
[18:24:42] <mntmn> swivel, indeed, weird
[18:27:53] <mntmn> swivel: ah it's a bug in that gallery thing. that is a webm movie and i think the player is only displayed by javascript
[18:28:23] <swivel> oh, I use noscript, that explains it
[18:28:43] <mntmn> yeah me too actually ;)
[18:28:45] <swivel> the thumbnail linked to empty.jpg
[18:29:27] <mntmn> "sigal" (static image gallery) needs a bunch of fixes it seems
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[19:18:41] <adjtm> swivel, I also thought it was missing, until I saw that it was a video (I also use no-script), I whitelisted mntmn.com and it worked :)
[19:19:05] <adjtm> having no-script sometimes makes difficult to know if something is missing
[19:19:43] <adjtm> like having some part of the page not displayed without any sign that you are missing something :)
[19:34:43] <swivel> i'm bandwidth constrained so tend to avoid enabling javascript especially on media heavy pages just to see if it makes a difference when the page ostensibly appears to already be complete
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[20:03:48] <darth-cheney> I mean am I totally crazy or is there a lot more potential for e paper displays than what we currently see out there in the wild?
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[20:12:23] <specing> I would like a libre e-reader
[20:12:31] <specing> doesen't seem like one exists
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[20:14:26] <swivel> libre software only?
[20:14:33] <swivel> or you mean hardware+software
[20:15:49] <darth-cheney> hardware needs to happen I think
[20:16:06] <darth-cheney> everytime I look online there are people trying to reverse engineer the controllers etc for the displays what a waste of time
[20:19:16] <specing> even libre software would be great
[20:19:22] <specing> darth-cheney: you missed
[20:19:29] <specing> specing | I would like a libre e-reader specing | doesen't seem like one exists
[20:19:59] <darth-cheney> I don't think one does either
[20:20:42] <swivel> specing: i have a pile of source for the kindle voyage, it's a mostly gpl stack running X and awesomewm
[20:21:19] <swivel> but it's not 100% complete, can't reproduce the firmware myself, but it's fairly hackable from what I understand.
[20:25:59] <darth-cheney> would be great if someone put squeak/pharo on it
[20:34:53] * mntmn is also interested in pharo, still has to try it on reform
[20:46:28] <darth-cheney> Nice!
[20:47:01] <darth-cheney> You might also be interested in the following project:
[20:47:02] <darth-cheney> https://github.com
[20:47:24] <darth-cheney> This is an attempt to get the OpensmalltalkVM (and Pharo) to run on bare metal
[20:47:38] <darth-cheney> In other words, there is not an "operating system" in the traditional sense -- Pharo is the OS
[20:48:05] <adjtm> darth-cheney, e-ink displays have a lot of downsides: difficult to make full color displays, difficult for high refresh rates, difficult to complete erase previous frames (except doing several black-white cycles)...
[20:49:29] <darth-cheney> Right. But I feel like if they are only used for ereaders and store signs there won't be much of a push to resolve those issues
[20:49:32] <darth-cheney> right?
[20:49:52] <darth-cheney> If someone can make a compelling enough system that uses epaper then there might be more motivation
[20:50:09] <darth-cheney> bbl catching a train
[20:50:12] <adjtm> but there are technology limitations
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[20:51:13] <adjtm> it's a fluid with charged particles of different colors, with electrostatic cycles you move them up or down
[20:53:19] <adjtm> for example on an amoled display only switching on/off red, green and blue is needed
[20:58:55] <Jookia> adjtm: very late pong
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[21:01:43] <adjtm> Jookia, are you connected to OFTC/#kosagi channel?
[21:02:16] <Jookia> adjtm: yeah
[21:03:09] <adjtm> I have not seen anything written there for months, do I have a connection problem or is like that?
[21:03:12] <adjtm> Jookia, ^
[21:04:35] <Jookia> nah, it's pretty quiet
[21:07:03] <specing> How libre is this arm laptop going to be?
[21:07:33] <specing> (I've leaked from Libreboot)
[21:09:28] <Jookia> i believe as libre as the novena :)
[21:30:22] <adjtm> Jookia, I ping several times in #kosagi channel including you today and I never receive a response :)
[21:30:35] <Jookia> adjtm: huh?
[21:30:55] <Jookia> adjtm: can you ping again? i'm on tor so maybe it's blocked
[21:38:38] <adjtm> Jookia, I made it again to Jookia1
[21:39:14] <Jookia> I didn't get it. try pming me? i wonder if #kosagi has set some flag to make it op-only
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