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| minute | josch: ah so things are maybe just extremely slowed down. so the key is probably that the driver should give up after a while of retrying things. | 01:29 |
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| josch | maybe but why is everything else slowed down if mnt-sc is in its retry-loop? | 06:27 |
| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 06:41 | |
| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 251 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 06:45 | |
| josch | Huh... turns out I just found out that I will have more time for MNT things going forward \o/ | 06:46 |
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| rick_ | @josch in like good knews? this kinda sounds like you have lost your job -> yaay more time on other projects ^^vv | 09:25 |
| rick_ | *news | 09:26 |
| josch | rick_: Yes, like that. https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2026/08/msg00360.html | 09:39 |
| + epsilon10 (~epsilon10@149.62.209.250) | 09:43 | |
| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 09:44 | |
| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 254 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 09:49 | |
| rick_ | urgh.. i'm sorry.. tbh i never thought debian would vote that | 09:51 |
| rick_ | but on the other hand.. i'm now at the point that i think you can't really avoid it.. its currently stuck in so many foss projects.. and also the linux kernel | 09:52 |
| rick_ | its really annyoing and shitty | 09:52 |
| josch | rick_: "at least" there was great vote dispersion. There seems to be no consensus on the topic. Just one option that won, given the algorithm we use for voting. So while this option will be the project stance for the time being, there seem to be many people in Debian who disagree (on both sides of the spectrum). | 09:55 |
| rick_ | yeah true | 09:56 |
| rick_ | still.. well we'll see where it takes us | 09:57 |
| josch | indeed | 10:00 |
| cararemixed | josch: oof. sorry it came down to this at all. happy to see people like you invested in mnt though. 🤘 | 10:14 |
| josch | 💜 | 10:16 |
| cararemixed | I need to get a better vm image working for esp-idf tools as its really the only thing keeping me on linux still tbh. | 10:17 |
| + arminweigl_ (~arminweig@sourcehut/user/arminweigl) | 10:18 | |
| cararemixed | that will likely change again with quasar as i haven't really looked at tree support outside of linux and i imagine its a massive device tree to wade through but suspend and resume will be worth it even if i boot linux just to run vms. | 10:18 |
| - arminweigl (QUIT: Ping timeout: 247 seconds) (~arminweig@sourcehut/user/arminweigl) | 10:19 | |
| * arminweigl_ -> arminweigl | 10:19 | |
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| + RandyK (~RandyK@user/randyk) | 10:57 | |
| johl | That Debian vote is really not nice. I'm so sorry this happened, @josch | 11:11 |
| + reformer (~reformer@softboy.mntmn.com) | 11:21 | |
| + jedavies (~jedavies@plan9.info) | 11:21 | |
| + vkoskiv (~vkoskiv@109.204.186.7) | 11:21 | |
| + cwebber (~Christine@user/cwebber) | 11:21 | |
| + thejevans (~m-7r3qil@user/jevans) | 11:21 | |
| + stephano (~stephano@71.238.14.13) | 11:21 | |
| + jbmorley (~jbmorley@dhcp-72-253-8-30.hawaiiantel.net) | 11:21 | |
| + kcxt (~kcxt@postmarketOS/casey) | 11:21 | |
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| - _justin_kelly4 (QUIT: Ping timeout: 264 seconds) (~justinkel@user/justin-kelly/x-6011154) | 11:25 | |
| vkoskiv | josch: Thank you for all your hard work on Debian over the years, sorry it ended up like this :/ | 11:27 |
| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 11:47 | |
| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 250 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 11:51 | |
| lidstah | waking up, it rains, forgot to buy coffee yesterday, and debian vote result is disappointing to say the least. going back to bed >.<. | 11:54 |
| + _justin_kelly4 (~justinkel@user/justin-kelly/x-6011154) | 11:57 | |
| - buckket (QUIT: Quit: buckket) (~buckket@vps.buckket.org) | 12:01 | |
| + buckket (~buckket@vps.buckket.org) | 12:02 | |
| - epsilon10 (QUIT: Quit: Client closed) (~epsilon10@149.62.209.250) | 12:57 | |
| rick_ | @lidstah: well at least the rain is comfy and calming... | 13:07 |
| ch | so time for a new base os for mnt? | 13:10 |
| josch | ch: the GR result was not "now we just slop everything" :) Lets see how things unfold going forward I say. | 13:25 |
| josch | But it's always good to be diverse and have alternatives of course! | 13:25 |
| minute | josch: are you stepping down as a debian developer or what's the consequence for yourself? | 13:25 |
| minute | i'm just reading the proposals + results | 13:25 |
| josch | minute: no, i'll keep my uploading right and will still maintain the things I care about -- but i think i scale down my Debian involvement a bit. It is too early to take drastic measures I think. | 13:28 |
| minute | josch: ah ok :3 | 13:28 |
| minute | but yeah, option 5 is extremely "meh", it's kind of a nothingburger | 13:29 |
| minute | cararemixed: what's your shortlist of non-linux OS on the pocket? | 13:30 |
| vkoskiv | I assume there is extensive discussion somewhere about how they define "responsible" here. Does feel like that word does a lot of heavy lifting here! | 13:30 |
| josch | vkoskiv: sure, but that'll have to be done on a case-by-case basis on the respective mailing lists | 13:32 |
| ch | josch: i agree the GR text didnt say that, but the people are already doing it | 13:32 |
| orva | In some sense that is the one the most lax policies (if forgetting the "please Max slop" ones), as disclosure is not required | 13:32 |
| josch | ch: but now they are doing it responsibly! | 13:33 |
| vkoskiv | I'd love to try running NetBSD on my Reform, but I wouldn't even know where to start on getting it to boot there. | 13:33 |
| josch | ch: sorry for the snarkyness, probably better talk to me about that topic again in a few more days or so... | 13:33 |
| josch | but i have a keyboard trackstick mod to do and werdahias now suddenly also found more free-time for kicad :D | 13:34 |
| josch | afk garden :) | 13:35 |
| orva | I feel bit bad that my immediate reaction was that I hope enough DDs quitting/winding down that debian starts to struggle :( | 13:35 |
| vkoskiv | Legal team at work did advise us to keep using Co-authored-by to attribute the AI model. So far I've only really used claude to write tests I can verify myself and to prototype some stuff. | 13:35 |
| vkoskiv | I tried Claude Code for the first time in mid-july. I feel like many people would be mortified to hear that confession :D | 13:36 |
| minute | responsible non-disclosure | 13:37 |
| Esi | on debian topic : oh that sucks :( | 13:37 |
| Esi | although doesn't surprise me | 13:38 |
| minute | vkoskiv: maybe by looking at the rk3588 driver diff between openbsd and netbsd? (as openbsd works, there was an additional effort that got display working on classic reform w/ rk3588 in openbsd, without barebox) | 13:38 |
| vkoskiv | It's a really weird time to be starting as a new hire at a software company. I've no clue how much they are expecting me to offload to AI tools vs. do manually to learn the codebase. | 13:38 |
| ch | josch: ahaha | 13:38 |
| Esi | vkoskiv: meanwhile, it feels like I became disabled and dropped out of the tech industry at the exact correct time. haha | 13:39 |
| vkoskiv | Coworkers are all very reasonable about it, and said it's OK for me to be doing stuff manually to get to know things better. But I could just do it in minutes with an AI thing, and time is money... | 13:39 |
| minute | vkoskiv: i started smoking only at 16! when others started way earlier! i was almost left behind when smoking became the next big thing! | 13:39 |
| Esi | lol | 13:40 |
| minute | (true story btw, but i quit >10 years ago) | 13:40 |
| Esi | <3 | 13:40 |
| vkoskiv | I did't drink until I was 21, either! :D | 13:40 |
| minute | orva: debian struggling would cause a lot of damage, and knock-on damage... | 13:41 |
| orva | Indeed :( | 13:41 |
| vkoskiv | I did end up getting an anthropic subscription of my own to try claude code on my personal projects, but I've barely used it at all. It just instantly sucked out all motivation to work on whatever I tried it with. | 13:42 |
| Esi | I also fear that this will result in anti-ai developers leaving said projects like debian, which just leaves us with an echo chamber of AI bros. :/ | 13:43 |
| vkoskiv | Though for auditing and spotting silly bugs, I didn't feel like that drained motivation much. But the instant it started spewing out big blocks of fresh code for something I had put a lot of time and effort into myself, I just felt this dread, and didn't even feel like auditing the patches it made. | 13:44 |
| vkoskiv | And I feel very hesistant to prompt stuff unless I'm really certain I can make use of the result, due to the amount of resources that takes up. The other day I went out to buy a new SSD to do backups on and the prices were insane. | 13:46 |
| vkoskiv | I saw a gaming PC at that store that would be the dream machine for some kid with a summer job somewhere, but that too was just priced insanely high. | 13:47 |
| + paperManu (~paperManu@173.206.254.242) | 13:47 | |
| vkoskiv | I feel really bad for the people getting priced out of computing because of all this AI hype :/ | 13:47 |
| vkoskiv | Okay, monologue over. I just felt like venting a bit. Weird times, eh!? | 13:47 |
| bremner | apropos of nothing in particular, what is the state of Guix (as OS) on the pocket? | 13:49 |
| vkoskiv | On the positive side, I'm really enjoying this new job! Interesting problems to solve, and a really top-notch team to learn from. And we use Gerrit for code review! | 13:52 |
| minute | btw i didn't post about this yet, but we got another software-only nlnet grant | 13:57 |
| minute | we filed this so long ago that i don't remember all the exact details, but it's mainly about "OS diversity", including porting our barebox work to uboot | 13:58 |
| onepict | Congratulations minute | 13:58 |
| minute | and making sure that a few other distros (NixOS, and IIRC Fedora) and OpenBSD work out of the box | 13:59 |
| minute | Esi: about the echo chamber, that's one thing why i'm not giving up on Linux or on FOSS in general. there has to be a resistance/people who still show up and do things differently | 14:00 |
| minute | vkoskiv: haha i can imagine that dread feeling very well. | 14:01 |
| minute | vkoskiv: for me it would be very different if for example someone invented a new higher-level language for describing tools formally with less boilerplate, and that can be compiled without bizarro llm fuzz. i have a disdain for imprecise and resource-wasting tools. | 14:02 |
| minute | also, someone on fedi pointed me at some quite interesting static analysis tools... | 14:03 |
| minute | ironically a github project iirc | 14:03 |
| vkoskiv | Do share! | 14:03 |
| minute | https://codeql.github.com/ | 14:04 |
| vkoskiv | I can check it out if github is up for whatever reason | 14:04 |
| orva | minute: congrats! | 14:04 |
| vkoskiv | Oh! I've seen this page. I filed it in my infinite "very interesting, need to take a closer look" list sometime in the last ~2 years. | 14:04 |
| minute | orva: onepict: thanks! | 14:05 |
| onepict | Seeing all the work being done by the community and the MNT team to provide alternative OS does make me feel hopeful. | 14:06 |
| orva | We have unofficial-official "LLM usage is KPI"-policy at work, so.. I do use it. A lot. It is shocking how sneakily the output is crafted to make it feel human, straight out from politic figure speech book | 14:06 |
| vkoskiv | minute: congrats on the grant! | 14:07 |
| orva | And holy moley the long term effect is horrendeus. I just checked that diff size barely dips under +500 lines, even on stuff that should be in low tens of lines | 14:07 |
| orva | That has nice compounding effect that really is not immediately clear | 14:07 |
| vkoskiv | orva: but more lines of code = more gooder product! | 14:08 |
| vkoskiv | All the best programs have millions of lines of code. Like Microsoft Teams, for example! | 14:08 |
| orva | Definitely sucks all enjoyment and caring about the quality from the work | 14:09 |
| cararemixed | minute: I've been using openbsd on most of my other hardware. It's got flaws but its solid overall. NetBSD might be where I sink more time otherwise. | 14:09 |
| cararemixed | The ports tree/pkgs drive me a bit nuts some days on openbsd though. I kind of want to start my own build tree as there really aren't that many packages I use. I can rely on the native package system for bulky things like librewolf and maybe ffmpeg but I can make pretty much everything else. | 14:11 |
| cararemixed | vmm is really limited on openbsd so it does make me wonder if I could do better with a different host os. Maybe a stripped down stable kernel/userspace that passes through things to a blessed vm so I can run things next to rather than inside openbsd. | 14:13 |
| Esi | minute: viva la resistance <3 | 14:14 |
| cararemixed | Anyway, I've been learning more internals on the bsd side so hopefully I can help not just use. I'll also be attending EuroBSDCon in a couple weeks and that will give a good vibe of what different groups are up to. | 14:17 |
| cararemixed | My pomera writerdeck has been my main venture into custom patches on openbsd (my pocket is feeling closer to ready to dip into *BSD too, just need a way to build embedded stuff I use). So far I feel lost still but its also a neglected arch. It might be worth switching to netbsd on it but then I miss out on things I like in openbsd's apis. | 14:20 |
| lidstah | 12:08:56 vkoskiv │ All the best programs have millions of lines of code. Like Microsoft Teams, for example! << thanks for the laugh :D | 14:29 |
| - glu (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~glu@user/glu) | 14:30 | |
| + glu (~glu@user/glu) | 14:31 | |
| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 14:34 | |
| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 258 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 14:39 | |
| Esi | on that note, what OSes are out there that work for the pocket? is Debian the only official one? I remember seeing some options for the MNT Reform but I think I've only seen Debian for the pocket. is that correct? or are there some unofficial ones out there? | 14:42 |
| + mjw (~mjw@gnu.wildebeest.org) | 14:49 | |
| + AnimaInvicta (~AnimaInvi@88-169-191-86.subs.proxad.net) | 15:01 | |
| + exfalsoquodlibet (a7085e0f71@user/exfalsoquodlibet) | 15:19 | |
| + paperManu_ (~paperManu@173.206.254.242) | 16:05 | |
| lidstah | Esi: On the pocket, iirc minute had success recently running OpenBSD. There's also a "get OpenBSD to run on Classic reform" post on discourse, and 9front (Plan 9 fork) runs (albeit, iirc, only on iMX8M boards - I might be wrong on this one) on classic, not sure about the pocket tho. On the linux side, Arch should run too (as long as you use mnt kernel, modules and dtb) and probably many other | 16:05 |
| lidstah | distros. Arch: https://community.mnt.re/t/arch-linux-arm-update-for-mnt-reform/4310 (but that's for the classic reform, not sure if it'll work on the pocket) | 16:06 |
| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 16:07 | |
| lidstah | Esi: NixOS on pocket: https://community.mnt.re/t/nixos-on-pocket/2228/29 | 16:08 |
| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 250 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 16:11 | |
| arjan | Esi: guix is also used quite a lot, has a kernel for it packaged | 16:30 |
| cararemixed | 9front on the pocket might also be fun. 🤔 Not sure if the built in trackball would be useable but it has at least 3 buttons. | 16:37 |
| stephano | lidstah / Esi: Arch will run on any MNT Reform platform. Currently I'm only testing the pocket A311D, iMX8M+, and a hacky version of the RK3855. Feel free to request other machines. I just don't have the resources to test and guarentee they work. http://mntar.ch/ | 16:38 |
| lidstah | stephano: ah, thank you for the precisions. I'll have a look probably this week-end or next week, I do have some spare SD-cards lying around (classic reform, RK3588-dsi here) | 16:40 |
| minute | lidstah: Esi: afaik there is also Genode for imx8mp pocket | 16:47 |
| Esi | ah thank you y'all | 16:47 |
| minute | yep https://genode.org/documentation/release-notes/24.11#Device_drivers_and_platforms | 16:48 |
| stephano | lidstah: nice, just let me know when you want to test and I'll build that machine. my rk3588 is the Radxa RK3588S CM5 plugged into the RCM4 board. It's running a version of barebox, and I'm still upstreaming those patches. | 16:48 |
| - _justin_kelly4 (QUIT: Ping timeout: 260 seconds) (~justinkel@user/justin-kelly/x-6011154) | 16:50 | |
| * ChanServ changed mode (+o, minute) | 16:53 | |
| minute | stephano: reminds me i should really do the RCM5, i.e. a version that uses the unused pins of CM5 | 16:55 |
| + _justin_kelly4 (~justinkel@user/justin-kelly/x-6011154) | 16:59 | |
| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 17:08 | |
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| stephano | minute: I haven't designed a circuit board in about 10 years, but figured it was a nice place to start back up. ;) https://source.mnt.re/stephano/mnt-reform-cm5-som | 17:16 |
| stephano | I mean, let's keep our expectations low here, but worst case I'll learn why I should leave the hardware design to you. :) | 17:18 |
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| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 18:09 | |
| josch | stephano: Lucie just recently clarified that this is a project for all of us to learn and grow -- i keep trying to teach my students that failing is *great* because it makes you learn so much faster than just be simple repetition of what is "right" :) | 18:11 |
| josch | stephano: also, wait and see until *I* publish my reworked keyboard v4.0 if you want to see why i should leave hardware design to the rest of you :D | 18:13 |
| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 241 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 18:13 | |
| stephano | josch: LOL. Good to know. And good advice. Many of my favorite memories in life are of failures. Some weren't fun at the time, for sure, but looking back now they are good memories to have. | 18:14 |
| + epsilon10 (~epsilon10@149.62.209.250) | 18:35 | |
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| rick_ | stephano this sounds so encouraging <3 | 19:50 |
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| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 247 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 21:29 | |
| + simba (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 22:25 | |
| - simba (QUIT: Ping timeout: 246 seconds) (~simba@45.133.138.178) | 22:29 | |
| - _justin_kelly4 (QUIT: Ping timeout: 259 seconds) (~justinkel@user/justin-kelly/x-6011154) | 22:31 | |
| Esi | speaking of hardware. anyone have or know of any other fun/interesting/cool open hardware outside of mnt? (I daily drive a Tangara music player. love it) | 23:00 |
| josch | Esi: when you browse crowdsupply you find projects like the open book touch, open printer or game bub | 23:06 |
| svp | it seems in a incredibly ironic twist, arm platform vendors pushing out 1 (one) linux kernel version ever when getting their stuff out of the door accidentally immunised their products from kernel slop. funny. | 23:29 |
| svp | too bad netbsd on i.mx8mq is still a dead end that i cant even attempt to debug (it seems the serial port is busted on my module, what luck) | 23:31 |
| - bleb (QUIT: Ping timeout: 268 seconds) (~cm@user/bleb) | 23:46 | |
| + bleb (~cm@user/bleb) | 23:53 | |
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