| josch | bkeys: the reform kernel is the debian kernel plus a few patches | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| josch | bkeys: i'm not the original author but i essentially did a complete rewrite on the scripts that move your setup from the sd-card to emmc or nvme -- if you have any questions you can ask me directly | 00:11 |
| bkeys | Yeah I ran the script and it still wouldn't boot so I don't know what to do without a TTL adapter | 00:12 |
| josch | JC[m]: unfortunately the handbook does *not* document how the sysimage-v3 functions and is thus very outdated with respect to which tools to use. I wrote down a lot here https://source.mnt.re/reform/reform-handbook/-/issues/2 because i thought stuff like this rather gets lost in the forum | 00:12 |
| bkeys | I moved and didn't manage to pack mine so I gotta go to my friends apartment and borrow his | 00:12 |
| josch | bkeys: maybe the reform-check utility can discover a problem with your current setup? | 00:13 |
| bkeys | I dunno I will wait until I get the adapter so I can get my hands dirty | 00:13 |
| bkeys | I think it has something to do with the saveenv I did in uboot | 00:14 |
| josch | bkeys: also make sure that you have reform tools 1.15 installed as that added many major improvements to reform-boot-config | 00:14 |
| josch | yes, having a usb ttl adapter is surely useful anyways | 00:14 |
| bkeys | Right now I am just building the mainline Fedora kernel, then I will add Reform patches | 00:15 |
| bkeys | josch: Are there any kernel modules that get loaded that are out of the usual of what gets loaded on a popular distro? | 00:21 |
| josch | bkeys: yes, these: https://source.mnt.re/reform/reform-system-image/-/blob/main/reform2-imx8mq/mkuserland.sh#L39 | 00:23 |
| bkeys | I will get the kernel built with patches then I will ask how Fedora loads these | 00:23 |
| josch | bkeys: and here are the kernel config options that we turn on in addition to what Debian has enabled: https://source.mnt.re/reform/reform-debian-packages/-/blob/main/linux/config | 00:24 |
| bkeys | Once I have a kernel that should work, I'll get it as part of an image; I also need to figure out the distroboot thing so that uboot EFI is used to load the Fedora kernel | 00:24 |
| bkeys | I should be able to write a raw image to an SD card, chroot into it and install my custom kernel; then boot from there | 00:25 |
| josch | i'd recommend that you start writing a script that does the preparation of the sd-card for you because then you'll have all the bits that need to be set encoded as a script which not only you can run repeatedly but that you can than also give to others | 00:27 |
| josch | something like mkuserland.sh for fedora | 00:27 |
| josch | maybe it can even be a drop-in replacement | 00:28 |
| josch | the mkimage.sh script that calls mkuserland.sh doesn't do anything debian-specific | 00:29 |
| josch | all mkuserland.sh does is to create tarball containing the system image | 00:29 |
| josch | if you can replace mkuserland.sh with a script that outputs a fedora tarball containing all the right things, then this would make it super easy for others to create their own bootable fodara sd-cards | 00:29 |
| bkeys | Yeah but doesn't the scripts Reform is using now doesn't use the EFI in uboot at all? | 00:30 |
| josch | bkeys: ah you are right of course -- i guess you'd have to adjust mkimage.sh so that it creates a EFI partition with the correct contents? | 00:31 |
| bkeys | Well uboot should have EFI capabilities already, I have gotten to a EFI shell on here before it got sent off for repairs. Theoretically you could have the right uboot on the emmc and the /boot partition and have everything else on nvme | 00:32 |
| josch | yes | 00:32 |
| bkeys | But it would also be good to provide people with a image they can simply flash to SD card. Having the Reform kernel in a .rpm package also lends to cleaner updating and if everything got mainlined then they could simply update to Fedora mainline kernels and my job would be done | 00:33 |
| bkeys | There is the fedora-arm-installer program that does this process; maybe that would be a good home for whatever script I come up with | 00:35 |
| bkeys | josch: It might be a good suggestion for mkimage.sh to use EFI because then people could install the distro of their choice more easily | 00:40 |
| josch | bkeys: in what way would it make the installation more easy? | 00:41 |
| bkeys | Because most distros use EFI by default, or at least I would think | 00:41 |
| bkeys | If I installed debian on a x86 or ppc64le machine I would expect it to use EFI | 00:43 |
| josch | right now "installing an os to the reform" works by downloading the image and flashing it to the sd-card -- how would that be made easier with efi? | 00:43 |
| josch | i don't yet understand its benefits. to me so far it just sounds like another layer of stuff happening between u-boot and the kernel getting loaded and i don't see what improvement it gives me over the status quo of just going from u-boot to linux directly | 00:44 |
| bkeys | For me personally it's what prevents me from running Fedora; but EFI would give users choices like a grub menu where they could choose a kernel of their choice | 00:45 |
| josch | bkeys: not really because the display is off | 00:46 |
| bkeys | I would think ideally if all the patches and etc were mainlined someone wouldn't even need an image specific to the Reform, they could go to whatever distro and download a default, non-customized image and go with it | 00:46 |
| bkeys | And yeah that is true, is it necessary that that be the case though? | 00:46 |
| josch | bkeys: what do you mean with "necessary"? the work of bringing up the display in u-boot instead of later in linux just hasn't been done yet | 00:47 |
| bkeys | Yes, if the display were brought up by uboot then things like grub menu would be accessible | 00:47 |
| josch | yes | 00:47 |
| josch | but then you could also get a boot menu via u-boot extlinux support :) | 00:48 |
| bkeys | You could, but grub normally comes default on whatever distro image I have dealt with in the recent past | 00:48 |
| bkeys | It would mean MNT wouldn't have to maintain as much, cause no custom image would be no longer needed | 00:49 |
| josch | sure, that would be ideal | 00:49 |
| josch | i don't think anybody is objecting to that | 00:49 |
| bkeys | I just don't see that being achieved without using EFI | 00:49 |
| bkeys | And uboot already has EFI implementation in it | 00:49 |
| josch | unfortunately though we are a loooong way away from not needing a custom image anymore | 00:50 |
| josch | upstreaming everything is extremely slow | 00:50 |
| bkeys | Yeah so right now I will try this custom kernel, but at least get EFI on there; and I would also not mind taking up the mantle of getting patches mainlined and helping out in that regard | 00:50 |
| josch | nice :) | 00:52 |
| bkeys | I want to help more the way you do, but I need to get familiar with the hardware and if I got Fedora booted on here it would give me more confidence that I can do other stuff as well | 00:52 |
| josch | i'm excited about you getting fedora running on the reform -- that will be cool! :D | 00:56 |
| bkeys | Yeah it's a nice distro, it'd be cool if others used it but I have not seen anyone else express much interest in running another distro (at least in this IRC channel) | 00:57 |
| josch | bkeys: i think there are plenty of people running something that isn't debian | 00:59 |
| josch | for example the 9front people are very active here | 00:59 |
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| bkeys | Oh yeah I have heard of the 9front guys | 01:00 |
| sigrid | I used to run void before 9front | 01:00 |
| + grubmn (~ufotofu@149.248.16.17) | 01:00 | |
| sigrid | which, if anyone wants to overtake all the change to void packages and live image builder changes, you're free to do so | 01:01 |
| + jnerula (~jnerula@li1009-93.members.linode.com) | 01:01 | |
| JC[m] | I'm all for running a variety of OS on the Reform and am happy to test once I get my unit back | 01:02 |
| sigrid | here: https://github.com/ftrvxmtrx/void-packages https://github.com/ftrvxmtrx/void-mklive | 01:02 |
| sigrid | and some pretty old image here: https://github.com/ftrvxmtrx/void-packages/releases/tag/mntreform2-20220214 | 01:03 |
| JC[m] | I mean, I was super stoked when I got vanilla Debian running on my Olimex TERES-I using only what's available on debian.org here: https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-arm64/current/images/netboot/SD-card-images/ | 01:03 |
| + doppler (~doppler@user/doppler) | 01:03 | |
| sigrid | 00:49 < bkeys> I just don't see that being achieved without using EFI | 01:05 |
| sigrid | why? | 01:05 |
| - Ar|stote|is (QUIT: Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) (~linx@149-210-16-8.mobile.nym.cosmote.net) | 01:05 | |
| + Ar|stote|is (~linx@149-210-16-8.mobile.nym.cosmote.net) | 01:06 | |
| sigrid | does efi provide something that uboot can't? | 01:06 |
| bkeys | Because most mainstream distros use EFI in their default images | 01:06 |
| bkeys | uboot provides EFI | 01:06 |
| bkeys | The difference is instead of having uboot go uboot -> linux, it instead uses uboot's EFI implementation to boot the distro | 01:06 |
| sigrid | uboot -> efi -> linux kernel? | 01:07 |
| bkeys | Yes but that's somewhat misleading because uboot is providing the EFI there is no separate EFI software | 01:07 |
| sigrid | ok, so basically by "efi" you mean a way to pass a bunch of parameters to linux kernel? | 01:08 |
| bkeys | No I mean uboot can behave like a full UEFI and can provide a standard way to boot an operating system just like x86 hardware does | 01:09 |
| bkeys | Given on the Reform it won't be achieved in a graphical way; but it would be like x86 hardware in that you could easily download and boot a default image from whatever distro you want to use | 01:09 |
| bkeys | Like instead of downloading the system image from source.mnt.re I can go directly to https://alt.fedoraproject.org/alt and get a default image that will boot out of the box | 01:10 |
| bkeys | But I need a custom kernel that behaves like the system image one does, and embed that into an image from https://alt.fedoraproject.org/alt | 01:10 |
| bkeys | Having the kernel inside a .rpm package would also provide the benefit of I could have a copr repo that hosts the kernel packages; and I could update my kernel through normal package manager with no tweaks | 01:13 |
| sigrid | I am still confused why is EFI required for that. you still have to tell uboot which partition the kernel is supposed to boot off, and what kernel parameters to use, no? | 01:14 |
| sigrid | or is there some magic "efi boot module" in each linux distro that does that | 01:15 |
| bkeys | Yeah there is a EFI partition that usually contains that info IIRC | 01:16 |
| bkeys | uboot just boots EFI, which will normally get you a grub menu; which you can select what kernel you want to use there | 01:16 |
| bkeys | It would bring the Reform a step closer to booting the way most other hardware does | 01:19 |
| sigrid | I see. haven't seen any efi hardware beyond x86 myself, so I got just all kinds of confused :D sorry | 01:20 |
| bkeys | No problem, my ppc64le server uses it and I have owned other arm64 hardware that had EFI, it was really nice as long as the mainline kernel supported it I could run whatever I wanted as easily as you could on a x86 board | 01:25 |
| - ggoes (QUIT: Ping timeout: 246 seconds) (~gregf@fsf/staff/ggoes) | 01:25 | |
| bkeys | I'd like the Reform to be the same way | 01:25 |
| sigrid | I just hope that does not mean 9front has to get yet another efi loader, this time for aarch64 | 01:26 |
| bkeys | Nope I am not adding anything to uboot itself I am just using what is already in uboot | 01:27 |
| bkeys | The current Reform uboot implementation already has EFI, it's just not used | 01:27 |
| sigrid | having uboot initialize the screen so it's possible to enter the commands and see the results is all I would like to get | 01:29 |
| sigrid | and my understanding is that no amount of current code uboot has anywhere achieves that | 01:30 |
| josch | i think bluerise was the last one who tried to get the display working in uboot | 01:33 |
| sigrid | cinap tried too, like a few days ago | 01:33 |
| sigrid | my understanding is that uboot's code is... hmm. idk how to put it | 01:34 |
| sigrid | complex. | 01:34 |
| sigrid | a bit too much | 01:34 |
| sigrid | (for no reason) | 01:34 |
| + cinap_lenrek (~cinap_len@ns3076381.ip-147-135-136.eu) | 01:34 | |
| sigrid | hello cinap_lenrek | 01:35 |
| sigrid | 01:33 < josch> i think bluerise was the last one who tried to get the display working in uboot | 01:35 |
| sigrid | 01:33 < sigrid> cinap tried too, like a few days ago | 01:35 |
| cinap_lenrek | so, wer hat heir das UEFI-fass aufgemacht? | 01:35 |
| sigrid | efi is used as a more standard way of booting loads of distros on all kinds of hardware | 01:36 |
| sigrid | and apparently u-boot provide efi way of booting | 01:36 |
| sigrid | *provides | 01:36 |
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| bkeys | Yes it does, because it does it on the pinebook pro and I run mainline Fedora on it as a result | 02:07 |
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| bluerise | yes, U-Boot has an EFI implementation | 11:13 |
| bluerise | It's always surprising to see how many people say "oh, we only need X for booting linux, it's so much simpler than Y or Z" | 11:15 |
| bluerise | and then you're like "sure, for booting Linux, but have you considered that there is more than just Linux around? and even then..." | 11:15 |
| + MajorBiscuit (~MajorBisc@2001:1c00:2404:ed00:28e1:ad14:ec67:539e) | 11:33 | |
| josch | minute: what do you think about putting a button into waybar that allows to enter and leave a "presentation mode" where swayidle will not trigger? | 11:53 |
| minute | josch: too much of a special case for a top level button, ~but~ it would be nice to add a menu for functions like this | 12:07 |
| minute | also to set scale, for example | 12:08 |
| minute | i wonder if one could add a menu via a tray applet | 12:08 |
| josch | another possible addition to the sway config could be: | 12:10 |
| josch | for_window [class="Firefox"] inhibit_idle fullscreen | 12:10 |
| josch | this will inhibit swayidle when firefox is in fullscreen mode (for example for videos) | 12:10 |
| minute | ah, sounds good | 12:10 |
| minute | something similar would be needed for video players, or is that automatic? | 12:10 |
| minute | i would have expected there to be a protocol to inhibit screen locking | 12:11 |
| josch | yes, mpv and clapper inhibit idle as expected of them | 12:11 |
| josch | pausing the video or quitting re-activates swayidle | 12:11 |
| - mjw (QUIT: Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by wielaard!~mjw_@2001:1c06:2488:1400:9e5c:8eff:fe8f:a440))) (~mark@gnu.wildebeest.org) | 12:27 | |
| * wielaard -> mjw | 12:27 | |
| + mark__ (~mark@gnu.wildebeest.org) | 12:27 | |
| minute | josch: btw, does your firefox use wayland directly? | 12:29 |
| minute | i'm not sure atm if that still requires an env var | 12:29 |
| josch | minute: I guess it does. killing xwayland doesn't kill firefox | 12:38 |
| josch | and i'm not seeing strange glitches in the menus and dialogs that i see in other xwayland applications | 12:39 |
| belgin | bluerise, lol booting linux on aarch64 is a disaster of a maze inside a puzzle | 13:26 |
| belgin | https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/arm64/booting.html | 13:26 |
| bluerise | I know | 13:38 |
| bluerise | One of the things I hated most was booting linux on x86 with output on a serial console | 13:39 |
| belgin | using computers used to be easier :D | 13:51 |
| bluerise | That's why I like OpenBSD | 14:17 |
| bluerise | Sure, it lacks functionality on exotic platforms, but it's in general a lot easier to use and understand | 14:17 |
| bluerise | I think even John Carmack said that recently... :D | 14:17 |
| vkoskiv | I think I appreciate the *BSD way of building things, though I've never used a BSD | 14:17 |
| vkoskiv | I've followed the development of SerenityOS very closely, and it is very similar in philosophy to BSD | 14:18 |
| vkoskiv | Just has a broader definition of what makes an operating system. | 14:18 |
| josch | openwrt is built similarly i think | 14:20 |
| bluerise | I think it's pretty interesting to see how the kernel and distro are separated. With OpenBSD, it's all *one thing*, so the kernel ABI can easily change because the userland is adjusted at the same time. | 14:21 |
| vkoskiv | Yeah, SerenityOS takes that same principle to the max :D | 14:22 |
| bluerise | :) | 14:22 |
| vkoskiv | They just came up with a completely new string class, and they are now working to replace... every use of AK::String :D | 14:22 |
| bluerise | And Andreas is a good person | 14:22 |
| bluerise | heh | 14:22 |
| vkoskiv | (Old one was renamed to AK::DeprecatedString) | 14:22 |
| vkoskiv | Andreas is wonderful, yeah. | 14:23 |
| josch | Andreas Kling? | 14:24 |
| vkoskiv | Yeah. | 14:24 |
| belgin | i wish people would work on making a good os instead replacing strings and whatever | 14:26 |
| vkoskiv | They are, it just takes time. | 14:26 |
| belgin | i like the windows 98 look of serenity | 14:26 |
| belgin | and the performance analysis tools | 14:27 |
| vkoskiv | Also the first novel web/javascript engine in a while came out of Serenity | 14:27 |
| vkoskiv | I'm selfishly waiting for the ARM port to mature a bit before trying to get the thing to run on Reform | 14:27 |
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| josch | is anybody else missing the feature in sway that allows you to cycle through the windows of the current workspace like alt+tab on windows and gnome or mod1+tab in awesomewm? | 18:59 |
| josch | it seems that sway doesn't offer this but there are plenty of scripts online that provide this functionality | 18:59 |
| josch | is this something that's also interesting for others? should we ship such a script as well? | 18:59 |
| josch | i find myself dreading to use mod1+arrows to switch windows and would maintain such a script if others would find it useful as well | 19:00 |
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| c-keen[m] | I would too | 19:48 |
| c-keen[m] | Also I need a find this window script and switch to its workspace | 19:48 |
| * xktr_ -> xktr | 19:53 | |
| JC[m] | josch: by "ship such a script" do you mean package it with the reform release or push it up to sway and maintain it there? | 19:56 |
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| josch | c-keen[m]: maybe swayr is what you are looking for? | 20:00 |
| josch | JC[m]: maybe I'd just ship it in /etc/skel/.config/sway/alttab | 20:01 |
| belgin | josch, doesn't just ctrl+j do that? | 20:02 |
| belgin | i haven't used sway much, but it works fine in i3 | 20:03 |
| josch | belgin: what does that keybinding do in your i3 config? | 20:03 |
| belgin | it cycles through windows on the current workspace | 20:03 |
| + xktr (~xktr@2602:fe3d:c01:10ca:1050:1ace:0:b) | 20:04 | |
| josch | belgin: yes, but what does it say in your i3 config so that it does that? | 20:05 |
| belgin | i don't know it's the default config | 20:05 |
| belgin | i haven't touched it | 20:05 |
| josch | belgin: default config in which distro? | 20:05 |
| belgin | debian bullseye | 20:05 |
| josch | thanks! i'll check it out | 20:05 |
| belgin | you're welcome | 20:05 |
| + ajr (~ajr@user/ajr) | 20:06 | |
| josch | odd... the default i3 config says nothing about a ctrl+j or mod+j key binding: https://sources.debian.org/src/i3-wm/4.21.1-1/etc/config/ | 20:10 |
| belgin | line 46 | 20:16 |
| josch | belgin: this doesn't cycle -- it shifts focus to the left | 20:18 |
| belgin | oh it stops at the leftmost window? | 20:19 |
| belgin | that sucks | 20:19 |
| josch | no, it cycles back to the rightmost window | 20:19 |
| josch | but if you have windows on top of each other | 20:20 |
| josch | it will not cycle through both of those | 20:20 |
| josch | so sure, if all your windows are next to each other horizontally then that works | 20:20 |
| belgin | i don't use vertically stacked windows | 20:20 |
| belgin | my bad | 20:20 |
| josch | ah i see :) | 20:21 |
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