2022-12-08.log

- vagrantc (QUIT: Quit: leaving) (~vagrant@2600:3c01:e000:21:7:77:0:20)01:56
- aliosablack (QUIT: Ping timeout: 252 seconds) (~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a0c:6a00:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1)02:12
- XYZ (QUIT: Ping timeout: 252 seconds) (~XYZ@89-24-58-223.nat.epc.tmcz.cz)03:15
AsmadeusSATA and nvme both are interfaces, did you mean SATA M.2 (form factor) drive ?04:13
Asmadeusiirc the sata pins aren't connected but I didn't check04:13
- Boostisbetter (QUIT: Ping timeout: 252 seconds) (4a410829d7@irc.cheogram.com)05:16
- Ar|stote|is (QUIT: Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) (~linx@149-210-4-166.mobile.nym.cosmote.net)05:21
+ Ar|stote|is (~linx@149-210-4-166.mobile.nym.cosmote.net)05:21
chartreuseThe M.2 slot only has the PCIe pins on it, there's no sata controller06:03
+ XYZ (~XYZ@37-48-26-223.nat.epc.tmcz.cz)06:29
- XYZ (QUIT: Read error: Connection reset by peer) (~XYZ@37-48-26-223.nat.epc.tmcz.cz)06:44
+ XYZ (~XYZ@37-48-26-223.nat.epc.tmcz.cz)06:45
- XYZ (QUIT: Ping timeout: 248 seconds) (~XYZ@37-48-26-223.nat.epc.tmcz.cz)06:54
bkeysI swear nothing is compatible with SATA M.207:02
bkeysI have it as an external hard drive; but I have 2 1TB external drives and 14TB on a network storage so if I could use SATA M.2 on the Reform that would be cool. But I just bought a 128 gig WD M.2 drive for it since the network storage is what hosts things like videos and such anyway07:04
- GNUmoon (QUIT: Ping timeout: 255 seconds) (~GNUmoon@gateway/tor-sasl/gnumoon)07:06
+ GNUmoon (~GNUmoon@gateway/tor-sasl/gnumoon)07:07
- bkeys (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-69.cust.tzulo.com)07:09
+ bgs (~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net)07:12
+ Boostisbetter (4a410829d7@irc.cheogram.com)07:16
AsmadeusI just ended up buying a case (M.2 sata -> sata) for the old m.2 sata drive I had around07:20
Asmadeus(not for the reform, obviously)07:20
+ indefini[m] (~indefinim@2001:470:69fc:105::1e2a)07:25
- bgs (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~bgs@212-85-160-171.dynamic.telemach.net)08:03
+ nsc (~nicolas@114-96-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)08:51
joschuff... posts like the recent ones on the forum really give me a bad mood for a long time :(09:17
joschi really would like to correct some of the factually wrong things the post contains but i'm sure that this will only lead to more negativity that i don't want...09:18
- ajr (QUIT: Quit: WeeChat 3.7) (~ajr@user/ajr)09:53
minutejosch: yeah, i will probably ban the person today as it is corrosive to our mood and thus productivity 10:01
- S0rin (QUIT: Ping timeout: 248 seconds) (~S0rin@user/s0rin)10:02
joschuff :(10:03
joschon the positive side (and i know other people have already said the same thing but i think i've never explicitly said so myself) the reform is the best open hardware linux machine i've ever had. I've been trying to make linux work on open hardware since the openmoko neo 1973 days in 2007 but nothing ever became more than a fun project to tinker with in my free time. The reform is the first device that i 10:07
joschuse as my main computing device without looking back. It is so much better than my old thinkpad in so many ways and the few things i'm missing (proprietary i386 games don't work on the reform... duh...)10:07
joschare far outweight by the things the reform does better10:07
minutevkoskiv: haven't, but there's something called remoteproc10:07
joschminute: so thank you so much for creating this hardware :)10:07
minutejosch: sure, thanks for contributing to it! ^^10:08
joschit's a pleasure -- just scratching my own itch :)10:09
+ S0rin (~S0rin@user/s0rin)10:21
+ MajorBiscuit (~MajorBisc@145.94.137.174)10:32
Boostisbetterminute: I have to say the same thing as josch. I was not expecting the hardware and experience to be so good. I can barely wait for the pocket reform. 10:56
BoostisbetterI also think that eventually i386 stuff will work. Software just needs some more time and interest. 10:56
+ aliosablack (~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a0c:6a00:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1)11:19
annapurnaWill the pocket reform keyboard be available separately? I don't really see a reason you wouldn't, but figured I should ask. I ordered the super cool (and Ultra Purple!) reform keyboard to use as my standard keyboard. I'm in love with the layout of the old keyboard, and am nervous about switching to the new ortholinear keyboard. I'm going to feel silly when I can't type anything right for weeks (I probably won't even be able to hit TAB), but it 12:29
annapurnawill be worth it.12:29
- aliosablack (QUIT: Ping timeout: 248 seconds) (~chomwitt@2a02:587:7a0c:6a00:1ac0:4dff:fedb:a3f1)12:40
+ chomwitt (~chomwitt@athedsl-351826.home.otenet.gr)12:52
- mjw (QUIT: Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by 030AABWI2!~mjw_@2001:1c06:2488:1400:9e5c:8eff:fe8f:a440))) (~mark@gnu.wildebeest.org)13:00
* 030AABWI2 -> mjw13:00
+ mark__ (~mark@gnu.wildebeest.org)13:00
minuteannapurna: happy to hear about the purple kb! we want to release the pocket keyboard as standalone too, yep13:12
minutei am thinking to make a bluetooth version as well perhaps, i think it would be a nice remote control thingie13:12
minuteBoostisbetter: thanks! i mean, some i386 and x64 stuff does work through box64/box86. just not AAA games i guess ^^13:14
Boostisbetterannapurna: don't worry! You'll be surprised at how fast you naturally adapt to the ortho layout! 13:15
c-keen[m]box64 has been a bit flaky for me, it can no longer run thimbleweed park it seems13:15
Boostisbetterminute: did we manage to get steam running just yet? 13:15
minuteBoostisbetter: kind of. only few games worked for me though13:16
minuteand it was pretty complicated13:16
minutebut i got x86+x64 to work side by side13:16
minutec-keen[m]: yeah, i've heard that it doesn't work since a longer time, but it worked for me maybe a year ago13:16
Boostisbetterminute: That is awesome. If you ever have the time a post about setting it up on the forum would be great. 13:16
minuteyeah. after finishing all the current hardware projects :D13:18
minutei've finished 2 very nice ags adventures on reform recently though13:18
minutesometimes a better way is to find games with portable engines and/or open source remakes13:19
joschshould there be a wireless version of the reform, it definitely will be put into my shopping cart. I'm looking for a remote for my kodi setup. :)13:20
josch(tried two mini-keyboards and i'm not happy with them)13:20
minutei did some moderation btw https://community.mnt.re/t/community-contributions/1327/913:22
minutejosch: yeah, i've noticed that most mini keyboards are not high quality, so we could offer an alternative13:22
joschthank you for your moderation post -- i think your approach is correct and i like that you answered to the cricism13:26
Boostisbetterjosch: was the person being rude no longer visible on that thread? I'm just curious as I find it hard to believe people would take issue with all the work that has been going with the Reform. 13:36
joschBoostisbetter: yes, very rude and lots of swear words...13:36
joschBoostisbetter: the post is removed now13:37
joschBoostisbetter: i doubt you want to read any of it...13:37
BoostisbetterWas that person's rude moderated response the only one from them on the thread? 13:37
minuteBoostisbetter: here's a screenshot http://dump.mntmn.com/screenshot-2022-12-08-12-40-50.png13:40
BoostisbetterHis tone is weird. Like he is 2 different people. Retired engineer huh. I don't get that vibe very well at all. 13:51
BoostisbetterAnyway good job cleaning it up. 13:51
minutehmm, why does kgdb_breakpoint() not do anything13:52
minutei'm trying to debug a complete freeze and just want to enter the kernel debugger before that happens13:52
- GNUmoon (QUIT: Ping timeout: 255 seconds) (~GNUmoon@gateway/tor-sasl/gnumoon)14:35
- buckket (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~buckket@pdp8.buckket.org)15:53
+ buckket (~buckket@pdp8.buckket.org)15:58
Boostisbetterminute: fun times! 16:11
minuteactually it's pretty terrible. i have successfully attached remote gdb, but there is a watchdog somewhere that just resets the system after a while16:22
BoostisbetterYeah that was tongue in cheek. You know sarcasm to bely the suck of situation. I imagine it is not fun. 16:24
minuteyeah :D16:26
minutetrying to disable the watchdog features of the kernel now, maybe it is then not activated.16:26
BoostisbetterYeah hopefully. 16:28
minutenope. it always resets after like 1 minute. argh16:37
minuteok, actually configuring all the wdogs explicitly in linux quiets them16:53
minutenope, doesn't work when entering the debugger16:56
- lexik (QUIT: Ping timeout: 248 seconds) (~lexik@171.25.222.217)16:56
+ lexik (~lexik@171.25.222.230)16:57
minuteah, i just need to be quick to set it up and then the wdog driver is loaded afterwards16:58
minuteok. impossible to debug this with kgdb17:31
Boostisbetterbummer. 17:47
+ vagrantc (~vagrant@2600:3c01:e000:21:7:77:0:20)17:50
minutewell, not really, i found an old patch that is somehow unmerged which fixes kgdb with aarch6417:59
+ bkeys (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-69.cust.tzulo.com)18:05
- vkoskiv (QUIT: Ping timeout: 248 seconds) (~vkoskiv@89-166-62-97.bb.dnainternet.fi)18:10
+ vkoskiv (~vkoskiv@89-166-62-97.bb.dnainternet.fi)18:10
- MajorBiscuit (QUIT: Ping timeout: 260 seconds) (~MajorBisc@145.94.137.174)18:22
Boostisbetterthat is good, and I'm glad to hear it. 19:16
+ ajr (~ajr@user/ajr)19:34
- bkeys (QUIT: Quit: With every step we take, danger will follow closely) (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-69.cust.tzulo.com)19:40
+ bkeys (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-69.cust.tzulo.com)19:40
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- bkeys (QUIT: Quit: With every step we take, danger will follow closely) (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-69.cust.tzulo.com)20:54
+ bkeys (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-69.cust.tzulo.com)20:54
JC[m]minute: thanks for cleaning up the thread and for capturing the valid feedback they had.21:07
JC[m]I was tempted to joke that the only search engine they could block MNT from was their own private searx server, but I didn't want to feed the trolls 😄21:08
bkeysYeah I support minute's vision 100% apparently we have the same taste in laptops cause the Reform is basically everything I wanted21:10
BoostisbetterThe design of the Reform is my absolute favorite part of it. That the Pocket Reform is going to carry that design on in a smaller format is just awesome. 21:12
bkeysExactly, while I would be annoyed by a big corporation doing something like the battery boards what the Reform is doing is paving a path that's never been trod before; so I don't mind being patient and supporting it21:13
JC[m]For sure. I'm personally much more forgiving and patient with FOSS because I feel that it's a collaborative effort and want to preserve a positive and helpful community.21:14
JC[m]I just need to brush up on my CAD skills to make any direct contributions to improving BCM.21:15
bkeysI am hoping I can make a Fedora image people can use that uses the custom kernel21:15
JC[m]That would be great!21:16
JC[m]I'm thinking about reaching out to Drew Fustini to see if he can get me in contact with the guy that attended a previous open hardware meetup. This guy designs BCMs professionally and I'm hoping to try and convince or pay him for a thorough review for maybe a future rev3 of the battery protection circuit.21:18
bkeysYeah Fedora is almost never an option; I don't know how popular it is exactly but it's a distro I really like for desktop usage21:18
bkeysWhat is lacking in the new battery boards?21:18
minuteJC[m]: tell my greetings if you talk to drew21:19
JC[m]I haven't used fedora in over a decade but recognize it as a bleeding-edge OS where many bugs are detected/reported and improvements passed down to everyone else.21:20
- annapurna (QUIT: Quit: Leaving) (~annapurna@50.203.150.150)21:20
bkeysYeah you get modern stuff but even before it reaches my hands it goes through a lot of QA so even on more exotic hardware it still just works21:21
bkeysI use it as a daily driver with absolutely no issues; and I use CentOS stream on my ppc64le server without issues as well21:21
JC[m]bkeys: minute and I previously had a small discussion in this room about expanding upon the circuit protections, such as short-circuit protection.21:22
JC[m]minute: will do!21:22
- mjw (QUIT: Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by mark__!~mark@gnu.wildebeest.org))) (~mjw_@2001:1c06:2488:1400:9e5c:8eff:fe8f:a440)21:24
* mark__ -> mjw21:24
+ wielaard (~mjw_@2001:1c06:2488:1400:9e5c:8eff:fe8f:a440)21:24
- nsc (QUIT: Quit: Reconnecting) (~nicolas@114-96-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)21:28
+ nsc (~nicolas@114-96-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)21:28
bkeysI know I am running debian when I try to install a package, and I haven't done anything other than apt-get install things and I have "held broken packages"21:29
- nsc (QUIT: Quit: Reconnecting) (~nicolas@114-96-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)21:35
+ nsc (~nicolas@114-96-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)21:35
- nsc (QUIT: Client Quit) (~nicolas@114-96-142-46.pool.kielnet.net)21:40
sigridI know I am running 9front because there are no packages :P21:41
sigridnothing to "hold", nothing to break21:41
joschbkeys: once the next debian stable release happens next year, i'll set up a stable mirror with the patched reform packages. Maybe minute wants to support that endeavour even. But i think it's important for people to run Debian stable on the reform so that they can run "apt upgrade" and "apt install" without having to fear that their unit is broken now.21:44
joschbkeys: do you need help with resolving your current situation?21:44
bkeysI understand wanting it to be stable, but this happens on any debian based distro I ever run21:46
JC[m]On my daily driver, a Purism Mini, I wrote the Debian live image to the NVMe and simply use a script I wrote to configure everything in a reproducible way. So there's never any maintenance work or upgrade issues for me. I'm currently trying to clean up the repo and add documentation, then I'll publish everything on my GitLab account.21:46
bkeysBut inkscape should be install'able even on the most stable of systems, it's been around forever21:46
joschbkeys: it is certainly installable on stable, yes21:47
joschbkeys: but inkscape is completely broken in unstable right now21:47
joschbkeys: is inkscape the package that causes problems for you right now?21:47
bkeysI see, this is a big reason I run Fedora is that even if dnf is a bit slower it never gives me issues like these21:47
minuteok, we have test color bars with imx8mp21:47
bkeysI can't install it because I have held broken packages and apt install -f didn't fix it (it never does)21:47
JC[m]Nice!21:47
bkeysNot to distro bash but apt is one of my least favorite package managers; although I cede that it is popular21:48
bkeysI don't absolutely need inkscape now; I'll just work on making the Reform kernel into a .rpm for now21:48
JC[m]Hopefully one day, we can order our OSes a la carte, choosing our unit systems and package managers21:49
sigridi can't imagine with the complexity of a linux system that ever being feasible21:50
joschbkeys: would you like some assistance from me to resolve your current problems with apt?21:50
JC[m]Like, debian-installer would just ask you to choose which one to use, without having to use either Debian or Devuan, etc.21:50
JC[m]sigrid: yeah, josch and vagrantc would probably tell me that I'm being extremely optimistic21:51
joschthe problem that distros try to solve is to make different software packages work well together. This is needed because no software developer is on the same system and these slight variations always require some changes for non-trivial software.21:53
joschand these changes are encoded in debs and rpms in very different ways, so unfortunately those are hardly interchangable21:53
joschthe problem that bkeys is facing, is due to apt relying on a very stupid "resolver"21:53
joschessentially the problem that apt has that produces "held packages" is, that apt will only ever look at the version with the highest pin priority which is usually the highest version of a package21:54
joschand especially when doing partial upgrades in debian unstable this often goes wrong21:54
joschit can probably also happen in stable but i've personally never seen it there21:55
joschso the problem here is not the package format (deb versus rpm)21:55
joschbut the resolver (apt in this case) and some people use smarter resolvers than apt for that very reason21:55
JC[m]that makes a lot of sense21:59
bkeysYeah dnf is a far superior package manager IMO22:00
bkeysjosch: I think I will be fine; I'll just focus work on getting Fedora on here22:01
joschkk22:01
joschthen i'm heading off to bed now22:01
joschgood night folks!22:01
bkeysWhat I was gonna do on inkscape doesn't have to happen right now22:01
bkeysThanks for the help22:01
bkeys*being willing to help22:01
minutei also have kmscube running now on imx8mplus22:20
minuteand sway :322:20
+ mntplus (~reform@p54a43e8c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)22:39
mntplusobligatory IRC visit from the new board!22:39
bkeysIs that on a normal nitrogen SoM or does it require any custom hardware on your part?22:39
mntplusbkeys: custom adapter, see on the photos22:39
bkeysDoes imx8plus have any big advantages over what is in the Reform now?22:40
minutehere you can see the adapter https://mastodon.social/@mntmn/10948006188808629622:43
minuteslash the module22:43
minutebkeys: it is 14nm instead of 28nm, so significantly less heat, 1.8ghz instead of 1.5ghz, and 8GB ram possible22:43
- mntplus (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~reform@p54a43e8c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)22:44
bkeysIt sounds nice in that regard; does the less heat also mean better battery life?22:44
minutethat i don't know yet... possibly yes because there are a bunch more power gating contorls22:44
minutecontrols22:45
minutethere's a downside in that there's only one pcie host instead of two, but my suggestion is to use the wifi+bt included (by default, can be made optional) on the nitrogen22:45
bkeysHmm in that regard if I could get Fedora on it then that imx8plus would probably be better than cm422:45
minutebkeys: probably yes, depends on your use cases.22:46
bkeysDoes the wifi+bt use nonfree drivers?22:46
minuteit does afaik. haven't really evaluated it in detail22:46
minute(that's still on my list)22:46
minuteah, not drivers.22:46
minutefirmware22:47
bkeysSo just nonfree firmware?22:47
bkeysIt would be nice, since you already have internal USB hubs if we could have a USB port inside the laptop and we could put wifi+bt on there that way it doesn't take up a pcie lane22:47
bkeysCause it seems to me the only real downside to USB wireless is I have a dongle sticking out the side of the laptop22:49
minuteyeah, but if you're ok with usb wifi+bt then the integrated SDIO wifi+bt shouldn't be a problem22:53
minuteso the chip is QCA937722:54
minutethat should be ath10k22:55
bkeysYeah not insanely problematic22:57
bkeysI don't understand why they view keeping firmware nonfree as beneficial22:57
minuteidk. "trade secrets" or patents perhaps22:57
minuteor they don't want to support it or it contains bugs that they are ashamed of22:58
bkeysWhat is your guess of what these adapter boards will cost?22:58
minuteright now i think the price will be relatively low because there are no active components on it22:58
sknebelthere's also been various waving about of regulation against modifyable firmware for wireless components22:58
minutei.e. no special chips22:58
minutesknebel: ah yeah, this22:58
sknebelit's not gotten quite as bad as people feared, e.g. you still can put custom firmware on many routers and such22:59
bkeysYeah that is what I was thinking there shouldn't be anything special on it22:59
bkeysI had a job offer from a place that had their own machine that could print carrier boards which was pretty cool. Entire company was probably 20 people; but I don't know if owning a machine like that would be beneficial to you22:59
minutefor me personally it is not desirable but tolerable to have some firmware blobs; blobs running on the CPU (i.e. in the OS) are not acceptable.23:00
minutebecause there is a boundary between the cpu and the peripheral23:00
minute(this doesn't work for stuff that has DMA access to all memory though, but that is not super common)23:01
bkeysI agree, although free firmware would be preferable23:01
minuteyes23:01
sknebelyeah, usually "blobless" just means "blob in ROM you can't see"23:01
bkeysWasn't imx9 supposed to be riscv or something?23:02
sknebelnot I know of23:03
sknebelfeel like its a bit early for NXP to get into that too23:04
bkeysI mean if they pulled it off they'd probably make a killing not having to pay ARM royalties23:05
minutethere was an abandoned imx with riscv experiment 23:06
sknebelinteresting23:06
bkeysYeah I remember reading something a really long time ago about imx and riscv23:06
minuteyup. that was before the crisis.23:07
sknebelI guess it would make sense to try it as a side product line, just having something doesnt mean having it take over23:07
minuteimx93 has cortex a55 iirc23:07
sknebelsince a good chunk of their market is probably very happy with the next gen being "the same, just faster"23:07
sknebelmakes porting easier 23:07
minuteso there will probably be a big imx9 with something like a76 or neoverse23:08
minutewhat's really awesome is that i was able to just run the existing reform userland incl desktop on the imx8mplus 23:09
minutealso because the gpu is very similar23:09
bkeysDid you have to use a different kernel?23:10
minutekind of, i had to pull in some new patches23:12
minutebecause the mipi dsi stuff is not yet merged into mainline23:13
bkeysWhere are all the patches for the Reform kernel?23:24
minutebkeys: in the reform-debian-packages  repo23:41
minuteunder linux 23:41

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