2022-06-06.log

- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)00:06
minutebkeys41: look at reform-windowmaker00:15
minutebkeys41: you can adapt the script for another x11 wm00:15
- sl (QUIT: Quit: leaving) (~sl@104-59-85-219.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net)00:17
minutebkeys41: "nothing works on it" is also such a broad overgeneralization that i find it hard to help00:17
+ sl (~sl@104-59-85-219.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net)00:22
- S0rin (QUIT: Ping timeout: 276 seconds) (~S0rin@user/s0rin)00:28
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)00:33
+ S0rin (~S0rin@user/s0rin)00:36
cinap_lenrekhttp://felloff.net/usr/cinap_lenrek/music/pll2.mp300:53
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)00:58
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)01:01
- Christoph_ (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~Christoph@p4fe73201.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)01:15
tinybronca[m]Hi all I just found this site: https://www.slant.co/topics/15760/~notebooks-based-on-arm-processors01:27
tinybronca[m]It says cons for MNT Reform " NVME slot operates at PCI-E 1.0 1x speeds. That's slower than a SATA drive. "01:28
tinybronca[m]What would be required to update this, for example a new SOM with SOC supporting faster PCI-e?01:28
tinybronca[m]or do you need to change the entire motherboard?01:28
tinybronca[m]also why does it say this: " Nonfree firmware baked into SOC chip set, so no non-free firmware in software stack. Unable to be updated. "01:29
tinybronca[m]I thought all ARM SOCs have at least code in SOC to start boot.... what else is there in MNT Reform?01:30
tinybronca[m]They don't have this warning for the other laptops, only MNT Reform01:30
sknebelThat tells you how much you should trust their "evaluations" I guess ;)01:47
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)01:48
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)01:49
kfxtinybronca[m]: the nonfree firmware is the ddr timings, and optionally a blob for the hdmi port01:50
cinap_lenrekarent the ddr timings from boundary?01:51
tinybronca[m]kfx: thanks.... any insight on faster PCI-E and more recent NVMe versions?01:51
cinap_lenrekddr timings usually depend on the length of the traces on the board01:51
kfxwhoever complained about that is a bit of an idiot.  it's a 1.5ghz arm computer. if you want a zomg gaming rig then go buy that.01:52
kfxI get about 200MB/s read speed, but I use full-disk encryption so it'll be a bit faster without that01:53
kfxcinap_lenrek: yes the timings blob came from upstream as far as I know, same for the hdmi blob01:53
tinybronca[m]kfx: I'd want faster SSD read/write even with 1.5GHz ARM machine, it says even slower than SATA01:53
vkoskivkfx: Are you using luks or some hardware encryption?01:53
kfxvkoskiv: luks01:53
- mjw (QUIT: Quit: Leaving) (~mark@gnu.wildebeest.org)01:54
vkoskivCool. I think I'll use that as well. Any weirdness when setting that up or is it normal?01:54
cinap_lenrekddr timings are not something you can get hacked from01:54
kfxcinap_lenrek: I'd bet a huge amount of money whoever complains about ddr blobs does so from a macbook01:54
cinap_lenrekthey'r a result of some calculations of the board and some systematic trial and error to get good center values covering variations in manufacturing01:55
kfxtinybronca[m]: it's not a meaningful difference01:55
kfxwe're talking fractions of a second unless you're regularly writing multi-gigabyte files01:56
tinybronca[m]kfx: how is it not?  I though it was big performance bottleneck01:56
kfxmany, many people in here use this machine as their main computer, and some of us just keep a fast desktop to remote into if they need horsepower01:57
kfxtinybronca[m]: I don't know what to tell you.  it depends on what you do with computers, I guess01:57
kfxbut that one anonymous sentence from some random internet stranger is not worth much01:57
kfxhere is a channel full of people you can ask if they are mad at their nvme drive speeds01:58
vkoskivI added cluster render support to the renderer I wrote so I can use it from my reform but offload the heavy compute to my desktop over the network :D01:58
kfxat least one person in here started out with reservations about the speed of the mnt reform and has since expressed that it was fine and they were surprised at how capable it turned out to be01:59
vkoskivAs long as my reform runs vim smoothly, I'm happy :D01:59
kfxfor my part, I'm incredibly picky about laptops, and the reform is the only arm laptop I don't absolutely hate02:01
kfxthis reminds me, I meant to put all these pine64 devices on ebay02:02
- mtm (QUIT: Ping timeout: 246 seconds) (~mtm@c-73-27-62-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)02:02
kfxbecause I really, really hate them.02:02
cinap_lenrekkfx: or a fire.02:02
kfxgood idea.  they're called pine for a reason, I guess02:03
cinap_lenrekwill they crack? ONLY WAY TO FIND OUT!02:03
slone of my old friends used to shoot his old computers02:03
kfxthe only device I hated so much that I ritually destroyed it was my ipod02:03
kfxthat one got crushed in a hydraulic press 02:03
sli was pretty mad when i found out there was no gapless playback02:13
tinybronca[m]<kfx> "this reminds me, I meant to..." <- what is the GPU performance like between them?  Someone told me Panfrost is much more feature complete and performant of a driver than etnaviv02:21
tinybronca[m]but I have no hardware to run benchmarks02:22
kfxI can't answer that question because I don't do things that need GPUs02:31
kfxthe pinebook pro didn't work correctly for more than a week at a time anyway02:31
kfxall of the available operating systems are garbage and they break regularly02:31
tinybronca[m]I've talked to people who use it as daily driver03:28
tinybronca[m]<kfx> "the pinebook pro didn't work..." <- why did it not work correctly?03:28
+ littlebo1eep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)03:29
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)03:29
kfxthe hardware is pretty bad but the available distributions are unreliable, so random shit just stops working03:33
kfxI'm sure manjaro users are accustomed to this but I don't have time for that crap03:33
bkeys41kfx I can confirm that nothing runs nicely on the pinebook pro; I have enjoyed the Reform a lot more03:41
bkeys41I'd say this is the coolest laptop I have ever had03:41
kfxwhen the pinebook pro is working correctly it's a decent machine.  but it works correctly about a third of the time and there's no way to predict when it will break, so there's no point in owning it03:56
kfxI'm sure it's a fun toy for the right person but I am not that person03:56
vagrantcACTION uses pinebook pro as a primary computer quite happily03:58
vagrantcthough the mnt/reform is pretty nice too :)03:58
vagrantcACTION used the older, slower pinebook for a coupel years, too03:59
+ mtm (~mtm@c-73-27-62-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)04:10
kfxI should sell mine as a set:  pinebook pro, pinephone plus keyboard case, pinenote04:18
kfxthe Failed to Live Up to Potential Boxed Set04:18
vagrantcheh04:53
- littlebo1eep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)05:25
verxthat’s pretty accurate. I have Pinephone Pro, the keyboard, and it feels like a big pile of wasted potential 05:34
verxReform still feels like an investment05:35
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)05:37
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)05:41
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+ reform5282 (~mark@h134-215-219-148.bendor.broadband.dynamic.tds.net)05:59
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+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)06:04
bkeys41I really like using rpm based distros and mainline Fedora doesn't have audio at all on the pinebook pro06:15
bkeys41But I do get hardware acceleratin. My end goal is to get Fedora on my reform (which I am typing this on) but this laptop is a simple joy to use compared to any other laptop I have ever had; including the older thinkpads06:16
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)06:46
joschbkeys41: what problems do you have with libreoffice and gimp?06:47
tinybronca[m]and if you like rpms maybe you don't compile?06:48
bkeys41josch I don't have any problems with those softwares06:50
joschah i read the backlog wrongly06:50
bkeys41So I talked with the guy who maintains the fedora ARM effort; and he says Fedora does not use boot.scr at all and that uboot simply implements UEFI and that is all that Fedora needs06:52
bkeys41I guess I have to figure out how that all is going to work on the Reform's version of uboot06:53
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)06:53
bkeys41Usually on other boards as long as the uboot is on either SPI or eMMC it boots out of the box06:55
joschInteresting. I don't own a single ARM device with UEFI. Now I know why I'll never run Fedora on any of them. ;)06:55
bkeys41Well uboot implements the UEFI interface06:56
bkeys41So it usually works out of the box so long as uboot isn't on the same device that Fedora is on. So on the Reform I am going to have to run uboot on eMMC and have Fedora on the nvme drive in here06:56
bkeys41Then I will probably take the patches that are in the reform kernel and build a custom kernel to boot from; and I should be good from there06:57
vagrantcyou'll almost certainly need a newer version of u-boot closer to mainline, where the EFI support is more mature06:58
bkeys41Does the Reform not use a recent version of uboot?06:58
vagrantc~2018, if i recall correctly06:58
vagrantcthere are patches submitted to mainline, but ... i've had mixed luck getting them to work06:59
bkeys41The guy leading the fedora ARM effort says that uboot has supported EFI for a very long time07:00
vagrantcACTION shrugs07:01
bkeys41I will have to give it a go; I still burnt my carrier board and it only uses 7 of the batteries, then I left it on too long and killed the rest of them. I got new batteries coming in07:01
vagrantcnever found the support to be decent until the last few years07:01
bkeys41All Fedora needs it to do is boot grub, at which point that boots the kernel07:01
vagrantcyeah, i know how it works :)07:03
vagrantci mean, the birds-eye view, anyways :)07:03
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* ChanServ changed mode (+o, minute)11:20
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- mtm (QUIT: Ping timeout: 255 seconds) (~mtm@c-73-27-62-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)14:04
flowymy screen jitters/shakes/glitches during any significant wifi activity. in sway. sysimagev3 up to date. familiar to anyone?14:31
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)15:02
BoostisbetterNope and that is weird. Do you have your wifi antenna cables running near the display cable? 15:31
BoostisbetterCould interference be a problem?15:32
bkeys41flowy Mine did the same thing, interestingly enough16:01
- chomwitt (QUIT: Ping timeout: 260 seconds) (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc0e:3e00:52f0:411e:7355:f3d2)16:02
- bkeys41 (QUIT: Ping timeout: 252 seconds) (~bkeys@static-198-54-135-37.cust.tzulo.com)16:09
+ mtm (~mtm@c-73-27-62-116.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)16:09
+ chomwitt (~chomwitt@athe730-c-multi-501.home.otenet.gr)16:16
minutebkeys: i'm running KDE plasma desktop on reform right now16:22
minutei am using system image v3 and did `sudo apt install plasma-workspace-wayland`16:23
minutebkeys: and to start, `dbus-run-session startplasma-wayland`16:23
+ bkeys74 (~bkeys@static-198-54-135-37.cust.tzulo.com)16:33
bkeys74minute when you have time, I did a writeup of all the debugging I tried to do. If there is anything else you suggest me try let me know.16:34
bkeys74https://cloud.bkeys.local/s/3PHRPcT3bADYsFC16:34
bkeys74Here is a link to the writeup16:34
minutebkeys74: i just wrote you some messages here about KDE16:34
minutebkeys74: did you see?16:34
bkeys74https://cloud.bkeys.org/s/3PHRPcT3bADYsFC16:35
bkeys74Accidentally sent link for my LAN16:35
bkeys74And no, I am still on this web client atm16:35
bkeys74I read some you sent, I don't know if I got all of them16:35
minutebkeys74: i am running KDE plasma at this moment16:35
minuteit's pretty nice tbh16:35
bkeys74What did you have to do?16:36
minutebkeys74: i already had some kde packages, but i mainly did: `sudo apt install plasma-workspace-wayland`, and in a console: `dbus-run-session startplasma-wayland`16:36
minuteand then it started pretty quickly16:36
minutethis did not work around half a year ago16:37
minutebut the desktop feels stable and responsive16:37
bkeys74I will see about replicating it over here. Does my cloud link work for you?16:37
minutebkeys74: yeah16:37
minutebkeys74: i read your report, but if you want to start a real process about this you have to write this to support@mntre.com please16:38
bkeys74Am I good to just copy paste my report to an email and send it there?16:38
minutebkeys74: sure16:39
bkeys74I know you are a very busy person, would you suggest me try to get it done locally or send it to you (if you are willing). Also since 7 of the cells work it isn't too terrible to live with, if you have a season or month that is less busy for you I'd be willing to send it in then as well16:40
minutejosch: i think we should ship a minimal version of KDE plasma-wayland as an additional desktop, it appears very usable16:40
minutebkeys74: if you can find someone locally that would be fantastic, as we could then also recommend such a shop to other people overseas (from us). shipping the board back and forth alone will cost at least 70-80 euro16:41
minutebkeys74: also, you absolutely cannot use the charger with 7 of 8 cells working, it will damage the battery system over time i think16:41
bkeys74Yeah I looked at how much it would cost me to ship it to Germany and it was about the same in USD16:41
bkeys74Duly noted16:41
minutebkeys74: but you can use the system without batteries on the power brick of course16:42
bkeys74Yeah; I will turn everything off and remove it all16:42
- bkeys74 (QUIT: Ping timeout: 252 seconds) (~bkeys@static-198-54-135-37.cust.tzulo.com)16:47
+ bkeys1 (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-37.cust.tzulo.com)16:52
bkeys1minute: It now says each battery is at 5.3V, the boards are disconnected and the batteries are out of the laptop16:53
bkeys1Does that sound right to you?16:53
minutebkeys1: yes, that's fine16:56
bkeys1Okay good, so likely no damage done16:56
bkeys1I will call the PCB people. Hopefully they don't charge me too much, but this laptop is also really cool so I'd really like to have it back how it was16:57
bkeys1minute: Now when I get on my work laptop my thumb tries to feel around for a trackball16:57
minutebkeys1: luckily all schematics are available ^^16:59
bkeys1Yeah I was thinking that, that and it's not like its where any real logic happens; it's just where the battery connects16:59
minutebkeys1: it could be one of the big discharge resistors or mosfets17:00
bkeys1minute: I just got off the phone with a company; they said they do more industrial stuff and I tried to make it clear that this isn't a typical laptop repair that it is an I.MX8 board which is commonly used in industrial stuff and it's a SoM/Carrier board set up which is also common in industrial stuff17:07
minuteinteresting17:07
minuteyeah it's closer related to industrial boards indeed17:07
bkeys1I remember using I.MX8 for a project at work, since I am an embedded software developer by trade so there is no way these people have never seen a I.MX8 board17:07
minutecorrect17:07
minutealso, all documentation and datasheets are available17:07
bkeys1They might tell me no but I will try to make it as clear in my email to their team that this is basically what they do, it's just "unusual" for I.MX8 to be seen in a laptop17:08
minutethey won't even need to mess with the imx part17:08
bkeys1I will make it also clear to them that all the schematics and such are available17:08
bkeys1Theoretically this is a rather easy repair, it's just a matter of finding a party that is willing17:08
minuteyep17:08
bkeys1I gotta be afk for a bit; mind reposting the commands that install KDE? I am on my actual IRC client now so I have logging17:08
bkeys1Thank you for your help17:09
minutebkeys1: > i already had some kde packages, but i mainly did: `sudo apt install plasma-workspace-wayland`, and in a console: `dbus-run-session startplasma-wayland17:09
minutebkeys1: i assume you are on system image v317:09
minutebkeys1: also, make sure to do `sudo apt update` before17:09
bkeys1At the moment yes, I have the nvme drive detected and such but my long term goal is to get Fedora on here17:10
bkeys1Which should be easy as long as the uboot supports UEFI17:10
minutesure, just give kde plasma a spin before so you have seen it can work ^^ 17:11
bkeys1Yeah I like KDE a lot more than gnome17:11
minutei can understand that... it's also faster on reform than gnome17:11
bkeys1Alright, time to ride off and run some errands on my electric bike. I will keep you updated on how me asking these people to repair it goes17:12
minutedolphin (the file manager) is really snappy17:12
bkeys1There are plenty of places in the US that do PCB repairs one of them has to say yes. Actually come to mind, when we used I.MX8 at my previous job we actually had a place do repairs on our I.MX8 board and other circuit modifications to it. I will also contact my old boss and ask for their contact info17:13
minutecool17:13
- chomwitt (QUIT: Quit: Leaving) (~chomwitt@athe730-c-multi-501.home.otenet.gr)17:39
+ chomwitt (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc1f:5600:f6a9:3725:b3e3:513d)17:40
minutekonqueror is also an interesting alternative to firefox and chromium... it's def. faster than firefox17:57
joschminute: re plasma-wayland: you mean just by including the package in the full image? We should then also add the "dbus-run-session startplasma-wayland" instruction to /etc/motd-full18:54
minuteyeah, or include a wrapper script... i just need to determine which packages comprise a minimal functional kde plasma desktop18:59
joschI think a wrapper script would make sense. We 19:01
josch.[5;5~19:01
joschsorry, baby19:01
kfxprobably kde-standard19:02
joschI think a wrapper script would make sense. We already have ~/.local/bin/gnome19:02
minuteyep!19:07
minutewe could use "kde" or "plasma"19:08
joschwe should probably also remove the line "gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.session idle-delay 0" from ~/.local/bin/gnome because we now suspend using systemd19:08
joschkfx: I don't think installing kde-standard is very smart -- that would make the image more than 3.5 GB larger.19:11
minutejosch: i'm not sure if waking is intuitive enough yet though19:15
+ vagrantc (~vagrant@2600:3c01:e000:21:7:77:0:20)19:19
joschminute: "intuitive"? Do you maybe mean "reliable"? I don't understand why it wouldn't be intuitive.19:20
kfxjosch: as a target package for the script to install, I mean.  it's smaller than task-kde-desktop, and debian seems to lack the concept of 'minimal kde'.  but, to be fair, kde also seems to lack that concept.19:39
vagrantcjosch: merged the linux/initramfs-tools stuff :) ... i presume there are other patches not yet mainlined to actually use them, though?19:49
minutejosch: the waking up shortcut is kind of hidden. i think we should change it so that any keypress wakes the computer up again20:11
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)20:25
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)20:55
joschkfx: I think I understood you correctly. Installing kde-standard as the package to install in the script, then it pulls in over 1 GB of dependencies taking up another 3.5 GB of disk space once installed. So maybe instead of installing kde-standard we should install a subset of its dependencies?21:03
joschvagrantc: yes, all our not-yet-mainlined patches are here: https://source.mnt.re/reform/reform-debian-packages/-/tree/main/linux/patches21:03
joschminute: ah okay, yes, that would make sense :)21:03
- bkeys1 (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-37.cust.tzulo.com)21:06
kfxthat's a hard thing to define.  kde's just not a minimal system.  kde-plasma-desktop and plasma-nm might be enough?  but kde folks would probably recommend kate and okular as well.  leaving out kmail (and other kde-pim projects) would save a ton.21:07
kfxI can't remember if kde-plasma-desktop brings in konsole...21:08
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)21:08
joschkfx: kde-plasma-desktop brings in kde-baseapps which depends on konsole21:08
kfxok, that's good21:08
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)21:13
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)21:20
vagrantcjosch: that's a pretty manageable level of patches, at least21:22
joschvagrantc: did you see the 7k line mnt5000-imx8mq-import-HDMI-driver-and-make-DCSS-compatible.patch monster?21:23
vagrantcjosch: well, sure, some of them are ... pretty long ... :)21:23
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)21:32
+ bkeys1 (~Thunderbi@static-198-54-135-37.cust.tzulo.com)21:36
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)21:47
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)21:57
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:11
+ littlebo1eep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:17
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:17
- littlebo1eep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:28
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:29
bkeys1minute: Indeed Plasmma does run very well on here22:46
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:48
+ littlebobeep (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:50
minutebkeys1: cool!22:56
- chomwitt (QUIT: Ping timeout: 260 seconds) (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc1f:5600:f6a9:3725:b3e3:513d)22:56
- littlebobeep (QUIT: Ping timeout: 240 seconds) (~alMalsamo@gateway/tor-sasl/almalsamo)22:58
* ChanServ changed mode (+o, minute)22:58
* minute changed mode (+b, littlebobeep!*@*)23:00
vagrantcjosch: hrm. just barely missed the upload to linux, apparently :/23:21
vkoskivthe merge window?23:31
vagrantcnah, just some weird branch uses of the debian kernel team23:31
vagrantcjosch: next time propose to merge into sid instead of master, if it's appropriate23:32

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