| - mjw (QUIT: Quit: Leaving) (~mark@herd.wildebeest.org) | 02:50 | |
| - freakazoid333 (QUIT: Read error: Connection reset by peer) (~matt@2603:9000:cf0f:80e3:5dd3:9b92:6096:9f9e) | 03:06 | |
| + freakazoid333 (~matt@2603:9000:cf0f:80e3:d0fe:1d93:83fe:3997) | 03:07 | |
| - natalie (QUIT: Read error: Connection reset by peer) (~natalie@user/natalie) | 08:38 | |
| + natalie (~natalie@user/natalie) | 08:52 | |
| + rasmus (~rasmus@c80-217-132-63.bredband.tele2.se) | 11:10 | |
| - rasmus (PART: Disconnected: closed) (~rasmus@c80-217-132-63.bredband.tele2.se) | 12:49 | |
| + vkoskiv (~vkoskiv@89-166-62-97.bb.dnainternet.fi) | 13:25 | |
| vkoskiv | So I've been primarily a mac-boy for the better part of 12 years or so, but the reform seems *really* tempting at this point | 13:28 |
|---|---|---|
| vkoskiv | Don't really feel welcome in the fruit camp anymore, and I have no interest in installing updates that make my workstation look more like a cell phone with comically large UI elements | 13:29 |
| vkoskiv | I own a 2005 Fujitsu S2110 that I still really enjoy using. Compact, nice display, nice keyboard with a modest 2GB of memory and an old single-core AMD chip. | 13:30 |
| vkoskiv | I sort of get the sense that the reform might be a really suitable modern replacement for that system | 13:30 |
| + mjw (~mjw_@2001:1c06:2487:f800:9e5c:8eff:fe8f:a440) | 13:44 | |
| vkoskiv | Though I still need to make some adjustments to my workflow to work fully under linux | 14:07 |
| vkoskiv | Dayjob has been helping with that, I primarily use ubuntu there in a VM | 14:07 |
| - adjtm (QUIT: Ping timeout: 260 seconds) (~adjtm@150.red-81-36-209.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) | 14:26 | |
| + adjtm (~adjtm@150.red-81-36-209.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) | 14:31 | |
| vkoskiv | I'd be curious to hear if the mnt team has identified any potential supply chain issues going forward? | 14:52 |
| vkoskiv | say I pre-order my unit in a month or two, will the shipping estimate remain at ~3 months? | 14:53 |
| vkoskiv | I realise that might be a very tricky question to answer, but it's on my mind regardless. | 14:53 |
| + freakazoid343 (~matt@2603:9000:cf0f:80e3:175:66c9:2f1e:b09e) | 16:44 | |
| - freakazoid333 (QUIT: Ping timeout: 252 seconds) (~matt@2603:9000:cf0f:80e3:d0fe:1d93:83fe:3997) | 16:48 | |
| - mjw (QUIT: Quit: Leaving) (~mjw_@2001:1c06:2487:f800:9e5c:8eff:fe8f:a440) | 18:13 | |
| + wiedi_ (~wiedi@2a01:138:a015:15:f953:1e2f:a004:2300) | 19:21 | |
| - wiedi (QUIT: Ping timeout: 268 seconds) (~wiedi@2a01:138:a015:15:9495:340a:1a7c:3914) | 19:24 | |
| - erlehmann (QUIT: Ping timeout: 252 seconds) (~erle@dynamic-046-114-038-041.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) | 19:47 | |
| + erlehmann (~erle@dynamic-046-114-038-182.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) | 20:01 | |
| - erlehmann (QUIT: Remote host closed the connection) (~erle@dynamic-046-114-038-182.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) | 20:01 | |
| + erlehmann (~erle@dynamic-046-114-038-182.46.114.pool.telefonica.de) | 20:01 | |
| scops | i'm not part ot the staff but the stuff is not a big company. i would say, if you want a reform as soon as possible: preorder it as soon as possible :) | 20:09 |
| + rasmus (~rasmus@c80-217-132-63.bredband.tele2.se) | 20:30 | |
| vkoskiv | scops: Yeah, I do get this sense of urgency. I'll have to sit tight for a bit though to accumulate more buffer for my finances first. | 20:31 |
| scops | :) | 20:32 |
| vkoskiv | So uh, anyone want to purchase a mighty fine 2005 Fujitsu? :D | 20:32 |
| scops | hehehe i have enough computers... but if it would be a apple device from this year i maybe would be interessted ;) (i really like old powerbooks) | 20:35 |
| vkoskiv | Tragically I sold my 17" G4 many years ago. But I do have a TiBook! | 20:36 |
| vkoskiv | I absolutely love the future-proofing of the main computer module on a separate board. | 20:39 |
| vkoskiv | (In the reform, not the TiBook) | 20:39 |
| vkoskiv | Dumb Q: If I order it here in the EU, will it ship to me directly from Berlin? | 20:40 |
| scops | i think so. i've got mine from berlin directly :) | 21:32 |
| jcs | i'm still waiting since july 19th 2020 to receive mine :( | 21:34 |
| scops | and yes... it was nice on the old powerbooks with the exchangeable cpu board and i'm really happy that the reform again has a similar design with the SoMs. i hope somewhere in the near future there will be a powerfull risc-v SoM available :) | 21:35 |
| vkoskiv | jcs: Oh, you're here too. Hello! | 21:57 |
| jcs | hi! | 22:00 |
| - rasmus (PART: Disconnected: closed) (~rasmus@c80-217-132-63.bredband.tele2.se) | 22:05 | |
| vkoskiv | Very curious that you've waited over a year but the shipping estimation on the site currently is 3 months | 22:07 |
| vkoskiv | Is that shipping estimation just way off? | 22:08 |
| jcs | i bought mine through crowd supply, just after the crowdfunding campaign ended | 22:10 |
| jcs | so all of the crowd funded orders shipped and i'm really not sure what i'm waiting for now, but i think in the EU orders are just shipping direct from MNT | 22:10 |
| vkoskiv | Have you e-mailed them or something? | 22:31 |
| jcs | https://twitter.com/mntmn/status/1433057129959677955 is the last update from lukas 2 weeks ago | 22:33 |
| jcs | so i guess by now the post-crowdfunding ones will be shipping to mouser? | 22:33 |
| chartreuse | vkoskiv: I finally bought a 1GHz Tibook earlier this year, was always my favourite of the designs | 22:54 |
| chartreuse | The shipping estimation was always a far out estimate, basically just gets bumped forward all the time | 22:54 |
| chartreuse | jcs: Probably best to email mntmn directly, kinda the flow was a batch of them out every month for the last few months | 22:55 |
| chartreuse | Also love your work on OpenBSD stuff, and especially those classic mac programming videos where you made the imap client | 22:55 |
| chartreuse | Be cool to see OpenBSD on the reform, even if I'm mainly a linux person | 22:56 |
| chartreuse | Never had the best experiances with BSD's on laptops but they work well on desktops | 22:56 |
| jcs | thanks! bluerise (arm64 openbsd hacker) has a reform in germany and is working on it, but i'd like to lend him moral support with my own :) | 22:58 |
| chartreuse | jcs: I ordered mine on the second day of the campaign in May 2020 and got mine right at the end of July this year | 22:58 |
| chartreuse | All orders are shipping directly from them and not going through crowdsupply for distribution | 22:58 |
| chartreuse | Yeah I know bluerise is currently working on the uboot part of it, didn't realize they were also going for openbsd | 22:59 |
| chartreuse | (I really should support OpenBSD more given that Theo is also Calgary based XD, though I tend to like NetBSD because I run it on silly old systems) | 22:59 |
| jcs | any bsd is a good bsd :) | 22:59 |
| chartreuse | Took me a while to come around to realizing I much prefer the notion of BSD licensing, just basically do what you want with my code as long as its credited | 23:02 |
| chartreuse | I code mainly for myself, or friends and such, so why not. If someone else has a use for it good for them | 23:03 |
| khm | is bluerise posting results/status/requests for help anywhere? | 23:06 |
| chartreuse | Yeah, I wouldn't mind helping with their uboot work either, only get to see the glimpses here | 23:10 |
| jcs | he's kind of being stretched in 100 different directions working on support for various other arm64 systems (mac m1, etc.) but i think his reform-specific stuff has been discussed just in here | 23:10 |
| jcs | and maybe the u-boot mailing list? i'm not too sure, i'm an x86 guy :) | 23:10 |
| chartreuse | Would be nice to have a graphical boot console for the reform even just for the normal linux uses as well | 23:10 |
| chartreuse | We'll drag you into ARM :P | 23:11 |
| chartreuse | Needs to be an open x86 processor that can slot into the reform | 23:11 |
| jcs | watching the openbsd arm64 stuff mostly from the sidelines, it's annoying how non-uniform everything is vs. just acpi on x86 (which has its quirks, but it's mostly standard) | 23:12 |
| technomancy | I thought uefi replaced acpi? | 23:12 |
| chartreuse | UEFI still publishes the standards for ACPI, it's that they got merged | 23:13 |
| jcs | uefi replaced the bios, acpi works with both | 23:13 |
| technomancy | huh | 23:13 |
| chartreuse | It's still available under UEFI, and what is still used | 23:14 |
| chartreuse | It's x86, you gotta still have legacy support in there, and it's not a terrible interface | 23:14 |
| jcs | it seems like on arm64 every system has a device tree but that device tree isn't included with the system? | 23:14 |
| bluerise | jcs: 'moral support' oh well | 23:14 |
| jcs | bluerise: limited driver support too :) | 23:15 |
| chartreuse | Yeah the device tree is software configured, rather than being some intrinsic hardware thing. Since more stuff is external to the CPU and it simplifies the boot loader | 23:15 |
| bluerise | I've been slacking the past two weeks though | 23:15 |
| chartreuse | ARM64 doesn't really have this large standardized bootloader/subsystem like UEFI or the BIOS | 23:15 |
| chartreuse | You see stuff like U-boot or openfirmware instead, and the OS is provided a device tree | 23:16 |
| bluerise | ACPI isn't really better than a device tree. | 23:16 |
| bluerise | device trees are actually more flexible | 23:16 |
| bluerise | the difference is essentially that while x86 machines come with a fixed-'device-tree' (aka ACPI) that can be buggy, on arm64 the OS typically provides one itself | 23:16 |
| bluerise | so the responsibility is a bit shifted | 23:17 |
| jcs | but with acpi the vendor says what's in the device, with device trees... you have to guess and write your own? | 23:17 |
| bluerise | devices are thrown onto the market more quickly, with vendor BSPs | 23:17 |
| chartreuse | The benefit of ACPI is the ability to move a system image between machines without manually changing the device tree | 23:17 |
| bluerise | you can use the same openbsd system image on any arm64 machine | 23:18 |
| chartreuse | You do, but most vendors provide device trees, or at least a binary device tree | 23:18 |
| bluerise | there's no need to change a device tree, if the machine provides one | 23:18 |
| chartreuse | Well yeah, you still need to put it on the card though? Or does openbsd ship with every device tree by default? | 23:18 |
| chartreuse | Like the raspberry pi images and the reforms one only have the device trees provided for their own hardware | 23:19 |
| bluerise | So my 16-core arm64 workstation boots EDK2 and provides either ACPI or device tree | 23:19 |
| bluerise | depending on what I select in the BIOS | 23:19 |
| chartreuse | Though with the reform image, the kernel has been kinda minimally built hardware wise | 23:19 |
| chartreuse | When I recompiled it myself I added a bit more in, but not the support for other platforms since the kernel is large enough already since it's not using an initrd | 23:19 |
| chartreuse | I should look into getting initrd working with uboot on the reform | 23:20 |
| bluerise | jcs: I think device trees make vendors lazy. vendors create one for a specific linux-fork, instead of mainline-linux. Hence it takes a while for mainline linux to actually get support for the platform | 23:20 |
| chartreuse | The hard part there is then the initrd would have to be on the sdcard/emmc | 23:20 |
| bluerise | on x86 it's a bit different, since no one uses vendor linux forks | 23:20 |
| chartreuse | bluerise: I'd agree with that. Too many ARM vendors have their non-mainlined fork and don't work to upstream anything | 23:20 |
| bluerise | so vendors have to mainline their stuff, otherwise no one uses it | 23:20 |
| bluerise | So device trees aren't worse, it's just that vendors are lazy. | 23:21 |
| chartreuse | Reform still is currently on a linux "fork" in that it has custom patches to the mainline kernel, but the number of patches is slowly going down | 23:21 |
| bluerise | Thing is, the same would happen with ACPI | 23:21 |
| chartreuse | Yeah it's much easier for a vendor to fork the kernel add their changes and never bother updating | 23:22 |
| chartreuse | If PC hardware was more vendor specific, you'd see that as well | 23:22 |
| bluerise | as long as machines are seen as 'embedded hw' and not 'workstation' or as 'server', vendors are fine with supplying their fork to the user | 23:22 |
| chartreuse | If we start getting some proper laptop class ARM64 chips I can see that changing, like the M1 mac but something more open | 23:22 |
| chartreuse | A powerful 10-15W TDP arm chip would be great for mid-end laptops and things like the reform | 23:23 |
| khm | my favorite part of the reform image is that it doesn't use initrd, breath of fresh air | 23:38 |
| jackhill | any thoughts on using the uboot EFI environment to then further boot another bootloader or your kernel? The distroboot stuff that SuSE was doing looking interesting to me. | 23:52 |
| khm | that's how I was hoping to get plan 9 running, but the 9front efi boot process assumes the framebuffer is already configured :/ | 23:56 |
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